4 ms·

PSA: Lenovo ships machines with parts that can't be freely updated or replaced

9 points by jimktrains2 11y ago

I have an E545 and my wireless networking card is extremely flaky (30sec of connectivity, 2 minutes of connecting at the worst; 30min connected, hours of the prior at the best). I've tried updating drivers, reseating it, &c and nothing works. I got a replacement card from an old Dell Latitude, put it in and got: "1802 - Unauthorized network card" http://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/ht001309 Their FCC excuse is utterly laughable because other manufactures don't require their computers to have white listed parts. I wish I knew how low the Thinkpad brand has sunk under Lenovo before buying this machine. So, just a PSA to others out there. Lenovo is no friend of yours.

NeutronBoy 11y ago
Many manufactures, including Dell, have been doing this for a while.
sp4rki 11y ago
Well you're in for a world of pain my brother. Here's a list of other brands that do this: HP, Toshiba, Dell, et al. The excuse they give, albeit stupid and useless IMO, is a valid one. This used to be easy to maneuver around by just flashing your BIOS, but with UEFI and encrypted BIOS' this has become an uphill battle. That being said, Lenovo still makes great machines (their keyboards destroy everything from the Dell XPS to Macbook Pro and everything in between) on which you can service their internals by yourself - just not the WiFi cards which require whitelist authentication. It's not like you can't change the card though... just google what cards you CAN swap to and buy one on eBay.
- jimktrains2 11y ago
  I shouldn't have to buy special hardware when I have perfectly fine hardware at my house. Vendor lock in is dangerous and nonsensical. How is their excuse valid? A certified stock machine ceases to be certified when unverified hardware is used. However all WiFi cards must pass FCC certification separately, that is not Lenovo's responsibility.
  - SamReidHughes 11y ago
    What is the danger and how is it irresponsible?
    - jimktrains2 11y ago
      The danger is this exact situation, I am now no longer free to work on my machine. I must bend to their will and buy replacement hardware that they sanction, which may or may not or may in the future be hard to source and/or high in price. The danger is a working piece of hardware could be rendered non functional for want of a simple and otherwise easily sourced replacement if a company goes put of business. I said nonsensical not irresponsible. I say nonsensical because the situation I described in my last paragraph shouldn't be my worry as the owner of hardware that otherwise would be compatible.
      - SamReidHughes 11y ago
        Oh I guess I misread. It's still not dangerous at all. You aren't going to die or suffer injury from the wifi card or lack thereof, even if Lenovo goes out of business. You're choosing words that falsely amplify your point.
        jimktrains2 11y ago
        Something does not have to cause mortal harm to be dangerous. Denying free speech is a dangerous thing to do, but it poses no mortal harm. Not owning what I buy is a disturbing trend that I believe is dangerous to our society.
        SamReidHughes 11y ago
        You have not lost your ability to replace your wifi card. The difference here is only monetary and the entire cost to you would be negated if the initial price was $100 cheaper. A year or two after your purchase, the price of laptops will have fallen enough that the cost of a laptop + an extra official wifi card is less than the cost of a laptop today. So I find your theory of harm quite dubious.
tadfisher 11y ago
IBM also did this. My X31 can attest to that.
joshuapants 11y ago
> I wish I knew how low the Thinkpad brand has sunk under Lenovo before buying this machine. The BIOS whitelist goes back at least to the T61, if not further.
brudgers 11y ago
The whitelist exists because Thinkpads have various certifications for companies and organizations that require them...e.g. a military use where the entire system needs to be certified for obvious (in the sense that security may dictate that a machine cannot have arbitrary hardware installed) reasons. It's the tradeoff one makes for a laptop that is of sufficient quality that it can be certified. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#Use_in_space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#Use_in_space Over time, alternative bios's with different whitelists often become available for Thinkpads. Not sure if this will live through UEFI. Good luck.
- jimktrains2 11y ago
  And the stock hardware is certified, why must it prevent me from working on my own machine.
  - brudgers 11y ago
    Because some certifications require limiting the range of possible changes. An obvious example would be a user swappable encryption chip. Allowing that would defeat the purpose if certifying the system for encryption in environments requiring certification for encryption. So the encryption gets baked in to the hardware. The hardware whitelist is just an extension of that feature set. Sure, not everyone needs that feature set. For most of them, though, the feature set is neutral at worst. People for whom the feature set creates a problem are a corner case. Those for whom it is a serious problem have purchased the wrong product or may need to tether an external device.
    - jimktrains2 11y ago
      It should be the device owner, not the device manufacture who decides what can and cannot be put into the system. If the owner, my employee in your example, decides to lock down the device, that is their right. For the manufacture to tell me as the owner that I cannot use an otherwise compatible part is plainly and simply wrong.
      - 11y ago
philipov 11y ago
Funny that you mention Lenovo, because they also come with built-in adware: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/researcher-discovers-superfish-spyware-installed-on-lenovo-pcs/ http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/researcher-discover...
Vendan 11y ago
Heh, I had a dell from years ago with the same thing, and I had a CD with the hack on it. Every once in a while, if I let the battery get too dead(Like the os shut itself off then I left it like that for 2 days), I'd have to dig that cd out and "fix" the bios. Really frustrating, but this has been going on since laptops first had those wifi card thingys.

9 points by jimktrains2 11y ago

NeutronBoy 11y ago

Many manufactures, including Dell, have been doing this for a while.

sp4rki 11y ago

Well you're in for a world of pain my brother. Here's a list of other brands that do this: HP, Toshiba, Dell, et al. The excuse they give, albeit stupid and useless IMO, is a valid one. This used to be easy to maneuver around by just flashing your BIOS, but with UEFI and encrypted BIOS' this has become an uphill battle. That being said, Lenovo still makes great machines (their keyboards destroy everything from the Dell XPS to Macbook Pro and everything in between) on which you can service their internals by yourself - just not the WiFi cards which require whitelist authentication. It's not like you can't change the card though... just google what cards you CAN swap to and buy one on eBay.

jimktrains2 11y ago
I shouldn't have to buy special hardware when I have perfectly fine hardware at my house. Vendor lock in is dangerous and nonsensical. How is their excuse valid? A certified stock machine ceases to be certified when unverified hardware is used. However all WiFi cards must pass FCC certification separately, that is not Lenovo's responsibility.
- SamReidHughes 11y ago
  What is the danger and how is it irresponsible?
  - jimktrains2 11y ago
    The danger is this exact situation, I am now no longer free to work on my machine. I must bend to their will and buy replacement hardware that they sanction, which may or may not or may in the future be hard to source and/or high in price. The danger is a working piece of hardware could be rendered non functional for want of a simple and otherwise easily sourced replacement if a company goes put of business. I said nonsensical not irresponsible. I say nonsensical because the situation I described in my last paragraph shouldn't be my worry as the owner of hardware that otherwise would be compatible.
    - SamReidHughes 11y ago
      Oh I guess I misread. It's still not dangerous at all. You aren't going to die or suffer injury from the wifi card or lack thereof, even if Lenovo goes out of business. You're choosing words that falsely amplify your point.
      - jimktrains2 11y ago
        Something does not have to cause mortal harm to be dangerous. Denying free speech is a dangerous thing to do, but it poses no mortal harm. Not owning what I buy is a disturbing trend that I believe is dangerous to our society.
        SamReidHughes 11y ago
        You have not lost your ability to replace your wifi card. The difference here is only monetary and the entire cost to you would be negated if the initial price was $100 cheaper. A year or two after your purchase, the price of laptops will have fallen enough that the cost of a laptop + an extra official wifi card is less than the cost of a laptop today. So I find your theory of harm quite dubious.

tadfisher 11y ago

IBM also did this. My X31 can attest to that.

joshuapants 11y ago

> I wish I knew how low the Thinkpad brand has sunk under Lenovo before buying this machine. The BIOS whitelist goes back at least to the T61, if not further.

brudgers 11y ago

The whitelist exists because Thinkpads have various certifications for companies and organizations that require them...e.g. a military use where the entire system needs to be certified for obvious (in the sense that security may dictate that a machine cannot have arbitrary hardware installed) reasons. It's the tradeoff one makes for a laptop that is of sufficient quality that it can be certified. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#Use_in_space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#Use_in_space Over time, alternative bios's with different whitelists often become available for Thinkpads. Not sure if this will live through UEFI. Good luck.

jimktrains2 11y ago
And the stock hardware is certified, why must it prevent me from working on my own machine.
- brudgers 11y ago
  Because some certifications require limiting the range of possible changes. An obvious example would be a user swappable encryption chip. Allowing that would defeat the purpose if certifying the system for encryption in environments requiring certification for encryption. So the encryption gets baked in to the hardware. The hardware whitelist is just an extension of that feature set. Sure, not everyone needs that feature set. For most of them, though, the feature set is neutral at worst. People for whom the feature set creates a problem are a corner case. Those for whom it is a serious problem have purchased the wrong product or may need to tether an external device.
  - jimktrains2 11y ago
    It should be the device owner, not the device manufacture who decides what can and cannot be put into the system. If the owner, my employee in your example, decides to lock down the device, that is their right. For the manufacture to tell me as the owner that I cannot use an otherwise compatible part is plainly and simply wrong.
    - 11y ago

philipov 11y ago

Funny that you mention Lenovo, because they also come with built-in adware: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/researcher-discovers-superfish-spyware-installed-on-lenovo-pcs/ http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/researcher-discover...

Vendan 11y ago

Heh, I had a dell from years ago with the same thing, and I had a CD with the hack on it. Every once in a while, if I let the battery get too dead(Like the os shut itself off then I left it like that for 2 days), I'd have to dig that cd out and "fix" the bios. Really frustrating, but this has been going on since laptops first had those wifi card thingys.