13 ms·

> And I say, the Greek stuff can be pretty boring That's because you're only reading the boring ones! Aristophanes is still funny and very worth reading today

> And I say, the Greek stuff can be pretty boring That's because you're only reading the boring ones! Aristophanes is still funny and very worth reading today for a typical person, in my opinion.

ubernostrum 11y ago
This comment isn't really intended to sound snobbish, but... I took Ancient Greek in college, and toward the end of the term was reading "The Clouds" in the original. And it was incredibly funny. But I've never found a non-boring translation. Which led me to suspect that a lot of the modern rejection of classics comes more from the culture and norms of classical scholars' translations than from anything in the works themselves. (a similar problem is known to have happened more recently with Dumas' "Three Musketeers", which suffered from English translators whose prudishness cut out a lot of fun bits from the original French)
- Nadya 11y ago
  There is a lot that gets lost in translations. Even from more modern languages where you think translations might well...translate better...fail to translate well due to linguistic differences. For example, Japanese wordplay doesn't always translate very well to other languages. Since so much of the wordplay relies on similar pronunciation between two words. 私は「今は何時ですか？」ってネコに尋ねました。「ニャぁニャぁ」が返事しました。 "I asked the cat 'what time is it now?' The cat replied 'meow meow'." Translators note: The Japanese pronunciation for 7 is "なな (nana)" which sounds like ニャアニャア (nyaa nyaa), which is the Japanese onomatopoeia for a cat's meow. I'm not sure if having the cat respond "meow meow" or "seven" is more funny for the English translation. The joke works better in it's original language as the cat could also be responding with "seven".
  - schoen 11y ago
    It might make for a less clever cat, but maybe you could also have the cat respond "now?" in English.
    - yathern 11y ago
      Or: "Right meow it's seven". But then you get into the whole deal with how literal vs conceptual you want to translate.
      - schoen 11y ago
        I do like that version.
  - rustynails77 11y ago
    I was reading a summary of Macbeth with my kids this morning and came across several "lost in translations" from English to English - mainly through changes in pronunciation and meaning of words changing over time. For example, the words "fear" and "fair" would have almost sounded identical in early 1600 leading to a play on words of the two themes in Macbeth. I also came across this interesting article on Kurosawa's interpretation of Macbeth, http://www.academia.edu/3306558/Lost_in_Translation_Reconsidering_Shakespeares_Macbeth_and_Kurosawas_Throne_of_Blood http://www.academia.edu/3306558/Lost_in_Translation_Reconsid... I suspect there is a lot lost in translation, which can be challenging when reading old texts.
    - ubernostrum 11y ago
      There are companies which do original-pronunciation Shakespeare and make a point of showing wordplay and rhymes that don't exist in modern English pronunciation. This video has an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s
  - kagamine 11y ago
    Just from anime and j-pop I know that Japanese wordplay is off the scale crazy to follow along with, especially when they mix it up with English. When I read Japanese literature in English it is important to read the author's notes or else one can miss huge tracts of plot. A simple example from pop culture would be the Miku Hatsune concerts "39 Giving Day" where '39' sounds like 'thank you' in English and they play 39 songs. In the credits for the MikuFlick iOS game it says at the end "39 for playing!". It's a simple example of what you mean, but j-pop is rife with this. Visual imagery too, the official video for Morning Misume's An Adolescent Boy is Crying Again on youtube has a fan's explanation of the imagery used, it's honestly a good read. (video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtboKJ4D8zg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtboKJ4D8zg but can't find the comment among the train-wreck that is YT comments). Posting MM video links on HN, what have I become? cries
    - Nadya 11y ago
      語呂合わせ is fun! As a Japanese speaker - I prefer it over the major mnemonic system [0]. I find memorizing "Japanese gibberish" easier than forming nonsensical-but-valid English words. So instead of forming Japanese words (proper 語呂合わせ ) I'll memorize a string of gibberish Japanese sounds. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system
- xornor 11y ago
  In Finland there is a collection of ancient stories or poems - Kalevala. It is something like Iliad and the Odyssey. Language of those poems is really something unique and exceptional. I have been always thinking that it is impossible to really translate it to any other languages. Probably same applies also to original greek works - we who have not studied ancient Greek, can read only bland versions of texts.
hobs 11y ago
I wish more of Diogenes of Sinope remained in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope It was in Corinth that a meeting between Alexander the Great and Diogenes is supposed to have taken place.[30] The accounts of Plutarch and Diogenes Laërtius recount that they exchanged only a few words: while Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes", to which Diogenes replied, "If I were not Diogenes, I should also wish to be Diogenes."[31] In another account of the conversation, Alexander found the philosopher looking attentively at a pile of human bones. Diogenes explained, "I am searching for the bones of your father but cannot distinguish them from those of a slave."[32]
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Diogenes sounds like a wise-cracking egotist, drunk on virtue. Is that really so rare?
  - kwhitefoot 11y ago
    Surely part of the point is that he was not bowing to arbitrary authority and was getting away with it. Which perhaps says something about the Greek attitude to philosophers. Of course Alexander was taught by Aristotle so perhaps he had a soft spot for philosophers.

> And I say, the Greek stuff can be pretty boring That's because you're only reading the boring ones! Aristophanes is still funny and very worth reading today for a typical person, in my opinion.

ubernostrum 11y ago

This comment isn't really intended to sound snobbish, but... I took Ancient Greek in college, and toward the end of the term was reading "The Clouds" in the original. And it was incredibly funny. But I've never found a non-boring translation. Which led me to suspect that a lot of the modern rejection of classics comes more from the culture and norms of classical scholars' translations than from anything in the works themselves. (a similar problem is known to have happened more recently with Dumas' "Three Musketeers", which suffered from English translators whose prudishness cut out a lot of fun bits from the original French)

Nadya 11y ago
There is a lot that gets lost in translations. Even from more modern languages where you think translations might well...translate better...fail to translate well due to linguistic differences. For example, Japanese wordplay doesn't always translate very well to other languages. Since so much of the wordplay relies on similar pronunciation between two words. 私は「今は何時ですか？」ってネコに尋ねました。「ニャぁニャぁ」が返事しました。 "I asked the cat 'what time is it now?' The cat replied 'meow meow'." Translators note: The Japanese pronunciation for 7 is "なな (nana)" which sounds like ニャアニャア (nyaa nyaa), which is the Japanese onomatopoeia for a cat's meow. I'm not sure if having the cat respond "meow meow" or "seven" is more funny for the English translation. The joke works better in it's original language as the cat could also be responding with "seven".
- schoen 11y ago
  It might make for a less clever cat, but maybe you could also have the cat respond "now?" in English.
  - yathern 11y ago
    Or: "Right meow it's seven". But then you get into the whole deal with how literal vs conceptual you want to translate.
    - schoen 11y ago
      I do like that version.
- rustynails77 11y ago
  I was reading a summary of Macbeth with my kids this morning and came across several "lost in translations" from English to English - mainly through changes in pronunciation and meaning of words changing over time. For example, the words "fear" and "fair" would have almost sounded identical in early 1600 leading to a play on words of the two themes in Macbeth. I also came across this interesting article on Kurosawa's interpretation of Macbeth, http://www.academia.edu/3306558/Lost_in_Translation_Reconsidering_Shakespeares_Macbeth_and_Kurosawas_Throne_of_Blood http://www.academia.edu/3306558/Lost_in_Translation_Reconsid... I suspect there is a lot lost in translation, which can be challenging when reading old texts.
  - ubernostrum 11y ago
    There are companies which do original-pronunciation Shakespeare and make a point of showing wordplay and rhymes that don't exist in modern English pronunciation. This video has an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s
- kagamine 11y ago
  Just from anime and j-pop I know that Japanese wordplay is off the scale crazy to follow along with, especially when they mix it up with English. When I read Japanese literature in English it is important to read the author's notes or else one can miss huge tracts of plot. A simple example from pop culture would be the Miku Hatsune concerts "39 Giving Day" where '39' sounds like 'thank you' in English and they play 39 songs. In the credits for the MikuFlick iOS game it says at the end "39 for playing!". It's a simple example of what you mean, but j-pop is rife with this. Visual imagery too, the official video for Morning Misume's An Adolescent Boy is Crying Again on youtube has a fan's explanation of the imagery used, it's honestly a good read. (video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtboKJ4D8zg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtboKJ4D8zg but can't find the comment among the train-wreck that is YT comments). Posting MM video links on HN, what have I become? cries
  - Nadya 11y ago
    語呂合わせ is fun! As a Japanese speaker - I prefer it over the major mnemonic system [0]. I find memorizing "Japanese gibberish" easier than forming nonsensical-but-valid English words. So instead of forming Japanese words (proper 語呂合わせ ) I'll memorize a string of gibberish Japanese sounds. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system
xornor 11y ago
In Finland there is a collection of ancient stories or poems - Kalevala. It is something like Iliad and the Odyssey. Language of those poems is really something unique and exceptional. I have been always thinking that it is impossible to really translate it to any other languages. Probably same applies also to original greek works - we who have not studied ancient Greek, can read only bland versions of texts.

hobs 11y ago

I wish more of Diogenes of Sinope remained in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope It was in Corinth that a meeting between Alexander the Great and Diogenes is supposed to have taken place.[30] The accounts of Plutarch and Diogenes Laërtius recount that they exchanged only a few words: while Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes", to which Diogenes replied, "If I were not Diogenes, I should also wish to be Diogenes."[31] In another account of the conversation, Alexander found the philosopher looking attentively at a pile of human bones. Diogenes explained, "I am searching for the bones of your father but cannot distinguish them from those of a slave."[32]

ZenoArrow 11y ago
Diogenes sounds like a wise-cracking egotist, drunk on virtue. Is that really so rare?
- kwhitefoot 11y ago
  Surely part of the point is that he was not bowing to arbitrary authority and was getting away with it. Which perhaps says something about the Greek attitude to philosophers. Of course Alexander was taught by Aristotle so perhaps he had a soft spot for philosophers.