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Disclaimer: I am a Canadian permanent resident. > I like it here. This is the real problem, you have a severe case of non-reciprocal love. In that case the an

Disclaimer: I am a Canadian permanent resident. > I like it here. This is the real problem, you have a severe case of non-reciprocal love. In that case the answer is obvious: move over, find another love, come to Canada or go to Northern Europe. U.S. immigration is an American problem,since they are the ones loosing talent and entrepreneurial people. It is not an immigrant's problem, since they don't have the powers to fix it. Here in Canada we have a much more open immigration policy and, IMHO, better quality of life. I strongly suggest you considering coming to Canada.

logfromblammo 11y ago
As an American, I also strongly suggest you consider going to Canada. The U.S. immigration system is so far gone that not even American citizens have the power to fix it. It has become a plaything in the hands of professional politicians. Just like many other things in the U.S., you won't get anything remotely like fair treatment unless you have rich or influential sponsors acting on your behalf. Even if you do ultimately still have your heart set on the U.S., being a Canadian PR will also make that easier, due to Byzantine and Kafkaesque reasons that I don't fully understand myself. And if you don't ever make it, hey, Canada's not too bad a deal either, eh?
- empressplay 11y ago
  This is totally true. The difference between how US immigration treats me (Canadian) vs. my partner (Australian) is truly breathtaking. One of us gets the red carpet and the other gets a cavity search (almost). If you're Canadian you have an advantage over any other non-American, no question.
  - jacques_chester 11y ago
    I dunno about that. The E3 visa is exclusively reserved for Australians and its terms are very generous.
chx 11y ago
You know, I am a Canadian PR too and while nowhere near as bad as the US temporary worker situation, the transition from PR to citizen is not easy if you have the audacity to travel. And, thanks to this wonderful new bill, you can be stripped of your citizenship basically any time the government wants to without judicial oversight.
- hartator 11y ago
  Waho, that's bad, do you have more details?
  - kafkaesque 11y ago
    I'm a Canadian citizen (but I live in the US), so I think I know what' hes' referring to. With Bill C-24, whether you were born in Canada or were naturalised, if you qualify for another citizenship or hold citizenship from another country, the government can take away your Canadian citizenship if it considers you to be a terrorist or threat to the country. I'm against it.
    - dflock 11y ago
      And, I think, bill C-51 considerably widens the definition of 'terrorist or threat to the country'.
    - chx 11y ago
      To quote https://bccla.org/2015/06/its-official-second-class-citizenship-goes-into-effect/ https://bccla.org/2015/06/its-official-second-class-citizens... The new provisions allow officials to take away a person’s citizenship based on criminal convictions that occur outside of Canada, regardless whether the regime or judicial system under which the person was convicted is undemocratic or lacks the rule of law.
      - themartorana 11y ago
        WTF Canada? The last place I would have guessed would tier class to provide unequal protection under and application of the law would be Canada. Are they really more worried about the abstract idea of Jihadist Muslims than America?
umanwizard 11y ago
Claiming the "love" is unrequited rests on the assumption that policy is at least strongly correlated with the people's will. As far as anyone can tell, this is simply not true. Hence, average American people can like someone without that acceptance being written into policy.
- rayiner 11y ago
  Do Americans strike you as pro immigration?
- StavrosK 11y ago
  I think you have a skewed perspective of who the "average" American (and person, in general), is. They tend to be rather xenophobic.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > Claiming the "love" is unrequited rests on the assumption that policy is at least strongly correlated with the people's will. It is, the average American doesn't like open immigration and they don't want immigrants taking their jobs especially after years of recession. Our immigration policy sucks because our people suck.
thiagoperes 11y ago
That's exactly what I did. I spent a lot of time and money on immigration lawyers trying to find a way to immigrate to the U.S. only because I don't have a degree. After years of trying without any success I started looking into other options, only to find that it's significantly easier to immigrate into other countries (like Canada). Two months ago I got an offer from a Dutch company (even with them knowing about my degree issue), and I'm moving to Amsterdam next week. Last month I spent two weeks in California, and, with this new reality, saw the whole place with new eyes. After the glamour wears off, you realize that the other options might be even better, specially after you see that some countries are much more welcoming to immigrants.
- simplexion 11y ago
  Can I come to Netherlands with you? I am sick of Australia and I enjoy riding bicycles.
  - yellowapple 11y ago
    Can I come to the Netherlands with the two of you? I am sick of America and I also enjoy riding bicycles.
    - yetanotheracc 11y ago
      Can I have your apartment when you leave?
      - yellowapple 11y ago
        Sure, if you don't mind living in a place where cost of living is inflated to Bay Area levels.
        tripzilch 11y ago
        That's mainly a problem for people that can't look further than Amsterdam. Which is not by far the nicest place to live (or visit) in the Netherlands, anyway. It's not the worst place (that's Emmeloord), but randomly picking another spot won't hurt.
mikekchar 11y ago
> Here in Canada we have a much more open immigration policy "Much more open" is a relative term, I suppose. I am a Canadian citizen, born in Canada with all my family (save my wife) living in Canada. I live in Japan with my wife who is Japanese. A few years ago my wife wanted to move to an English speaking country so that she could improve her English and live abroad. I'll just be plain. It was easier for me to get a visa for myself and my wife to work in the UK than it was to get a visa for my wife in Canada. Had we decided to go to Canada, she would have had to come on a tourist visa. She would have no health care coverage, nor ability to work. After 6 months she would have to apply for an extension to her tourist visa on humanitarian grounds. Her application would be reviewed by a single border guard and could be denied for any or no reason. There is no right of appeal. If her application is denied, she would be barred from entering Canada again thereafter. If she is granted the extension, then she gets another 6 months. After the 6 months are up, she gets to apply for another extension on humanitarian grounds with the same restrictions. After a total of 18 months (and after paying $1500 for the application plus submitting all of our emails together for the last 3 years plus pictures of us together for the last 3 years), she might be granted permanent residence status. That's for my wife! In constrast Japan gave me a 3 year working visa after seeing the paperwork showing that we were married. The application was free and took 1 week to process. I can renew after 3 years. The last time I renewed my visa in Japan (before I was married) they just wanted to know if I was still working and after that gave me a renewal (the entire process took 1 hour and cost the equivalent of $60). After 5 years in the country I can apply for permanent residence status (which is similarly rubber-stampy). In the meantime I get national health care insurance and even a pension. (Note: citizenship is generally difficult to get in Japan, though. You must live in Japan for at least 10 years and you must show that you have integrated with the community). Having said all that, being an immigrant myself I feel that immigration is a privilage not a right. If a country doesn't want immigrants, then that's their business. If you come on a student visa, or on a work visa that is intended to fill gaps in the local economy, then you are expected to return to your home country some day. That's just the way it is. I feel for the guy because I would be devastated if Japan decided not to renew my visa for some reason. I love living here. I hope they invite me to stay permanently, but I still think that it's Japan's right to decide what they want to do.
- 11y ago
bane 11y ago
I think this is entirely fair. The U.S. is not a country that loves anybody -- not in the way that countries like Denmark does. The U.S. works by mostly just getting out of the way and ignoring you at least compared to other advanced countries. You have more room to succeed or fail here than most other countries, but the government really won't do much to help you either way. Most interactions with the government here aren't all that wonderful no matter who you are. Other countries offer better protections but can be more intrusive in ways that prevent both vast success and failures, with the tradeoff of creating more social stability. The good news is that it seems like both approaches have managed to create great places to live provided you have some baseline understanding of what the place is like. There are a large number of well developed countries I'd be perfectly happy to live in, Canada included, because they offer great (if different) and reasonable living conditions.
- cesarbs 11y ago
  Could you elaborate on Denmark? I always thought they were really tough on immigration.
  - bane 11y ago
    I mean internally, once you get in. Most countries, especially G-20 level countries are very difficult to immigrate to.
  - nextos 11y ago
    If you're inside EU it's super easy. But that's hardly news.
karavelov 11y ago
Coming to Ireland is pretty painless and the economic climate is favorable (but not the weather)
- sjf 11y ago
  Are you sure about that? You still need an employer sponsored work permit, and you can't change jobs without getting a new permit. Then it takes five years before you are eligible for Long Term Residency. You can go from an H1B to a green card in less time if you are not from India or China. Not everyone comes from the EU.
desireco42 11y ago
Thank you for saying this.
log0 11y ago
Just to clarify in case people still have the impression that Canada is good for immigration: Maybe Canada is better than America for immigration, the experience is getting worse. After the new immigration minister came up in July 2013, the government has changed policies to make immigration slow and the path to citizenship much harder. 1) A Labour Market Opinion (LMO), which is required before a work visa, itself used to take 6 weeks in 2008. This process now takes about 6 months (my case, which is not too slow) to 1 year (another friend's case, and plenty of people in forums). For the work visa, add another 2-6 months on top of it, and then you have to apply the temporary resident visa. 2) Path to citizenship (having work visa => permanent residence => citizenship) used to take a total of 4 years (roughly), now is changed to 1 + 2 + 4 (7 years), a significantly longer time frame. I get the feeling that Canada is changing its opinion of welcoming immigrants. Disclaimer: Used to live in Canada, but have left.
- dghughes 11y ago
  Being born in and still a citizen of a Commonwealth nation should make it easier for OP to emigrate to Canada. (is it still called emigrate if it's from a country not your own to another?)
- stormbrew 11y ago
  > I get the feeling that Canada is changing its opinion of welcoming immigrants. Well, our government is at any rate. As a Canadian by birth I don't know that I feel we (the citizenry) have had a lot of input into the matter. :/
  - rockdoe 11y ago
    You're not a democracy that elects its representatives and government?
    - stormbrew 11y ago
      As with all ostensibly democratic states, there are undemocratic elements that act as a check on various things (including the will of the majority). In Canada we elect representatives to a legislature, and those representatives effectively elect a government. My representative won his seat with about 48% of the riding's vote, which is actually an extremely decisive victory for a representative, most of whom win on pluralities more in the range of 30-45%. In total, approximately 39% of the 61% of the electorate that voted (or 23% of all eligible voters), voted in a legislature where the winning party took 53% of the seats and secured themselves virtually absolute power to enact their legislative agenda for up to 5 years. I won't say we don't live in a democracy, but I do think we live in one that is only barely functional. But to really specifically answer your question (which is actually two questions): I live in a democracy that elects its representatives. I do not live in a democracy that elects its government.
sumedh 11y ago
> move over, find another love, I agree, I wanted to go to US from India but realized that its not going to happen so I went to Australia. Aus immigration is fairly simple process if you have tech background.
- nojvek 11y ago
  went to Australia. PR took more than 4 years. I gave up hope and started applying for a tech job in US. Now I want to move back to Aus with wife but the partner visa is so broken. I have to move to Australia, my wife has to move back to her home country. She applies, the govt decides whether we will reunite again or not after 6-12 months. They charge $4500 application fee that is non-refundable. Aus immigration is equally as broken.
  - sumedh 11y ago
    Ahh yes, I forgot about the partner visa, yes I agree its broken. Why did your PR take 4 years?
skbohra123 11y ago
Minor nit pick, 'losing' not 'loosing'.
deerpig 11y ago
> non-reciprocal love Very true... same thing happened to me in Thailand -- 16 years there and finally got tired of the government's xenophobia and relentless efforts to push foreigners out of the country. I am an American citizen, and the more I think of it, that is one reason I left America too.... Best to embrace a personal identity as an expat. It's a tribe or sorts, but it's more a state of mind. You lived in America as an immigrant. Live there as an expat, the attitude will free you, safe in the knowledge that if things really get bad, you can always find another place that /will/ love you... until they don't :)

logfromblammo 11y ago

As an American, I also strongly suggest you consider going to Canada. The U.S. immigration system is so far gone that not even American citizens have the power to fix it. It has become a plaything in the hands of professional politicians. Just like many other things in the U.S., you won't get anything remotely like fair treatment unless you have rich or influential sponsors acting on your behalf. Even if you do ultimately still have your heart set on the U.S., being a Canadian PR will also make that easier, due to Byzantine and Kafkaesque reasons that I don't fully understand myself. And if you don't ever make it, hey, Canada's not too bad a deal either, eh?

empressplay 11y ago
This is totally true. The difference between how US immigration treats me (Canadian) vs. my partner (Australian) is truly breathtaking. One of us gets the red carpet and the other gets a cavity search (almost). If you're Canadian you have an advantage over any other non-American, no question.
- jacques_chester 11y ago
  I dunno about that. The E3 visa is exclusively reserved for Australians and its terms are very generous.

chx 11y ago

You know, I am a Canadian PR too and while nowhere near as bad as the US temporary worker situation, the transition from PR to citizen is not easy if you have the audacity to travel. And, thanks to this wonderful new bill, you can be stripped of your citizenship basically any time the government wants to without judicial oversight.

hartator 11y ago
Waho, that's bad, do you have more details?
- kafkaesque 11y ago
  I'm a Canadian citizen (but I live in the US), so I think I know what' hes' referring to. With Bill C-24, whether you were born in Canada or were naturalised, if you qualify for another citizenship or hold citizenship from another country, the government can take away your Canadian citizenship if it considers you to be a terrorist or threat to the country. I'm against it.
  - dflock 11y ago
    And, I think, bill C-51 considerably widens the definition of 'terrorist or threat to the country'.
  - chx 11y ago
    To quote https://bccla.org/2015/06/its-official-second-class-citizenship-goes-into-effect/ https://bccla.org/2015/06/its-official-second-class-citizens... The new provisions allow officials to take away a person’s citizenship based on criminal convictions that occur outside of Canada, regardless whether the regime or judicial system under which the person was convicted is undemocratic or lacks the rule of law.
    - themartorana 11y ago
      WTF Canada? The last place I would have guessed would tier class to provide unequal protection under and application of the law would be Canada. Are they really more worried about the abstract idea of Jihadist Muslims than America?

umanwizard 11y ago

Claiming the "love" is unrequited rests on the assumption that policy is at least strongly correlated with the people's will. As far as anyone can tell, this is simply not true. Hence, average American people can like someone without that acceptance being written into policy.

rayiner 11y ago
Do Americans strike you as pro immigration?
StavrosK 11y ago
I think you have a skewed perspective of who the "average" American (and person, in general), is. They tend to be rather xenophobic.
gnaritas 11y ago
> Claiming the "love" is unrequited rests on the assumption that policy is at least strongly correlated with the people's will. It is, the average American doesn't like open immigration and they don't want immigrants taking their jobs especially after years of recession. Our immigration policy sucks because our people suck.

thiagoperes 11y ago

That's exactly what I did. I spent a lot of time and money on immigration lawyers trying to find a way to immigrate to the U.S. only because I don't have a degree. After years of trying without any success I started looking into other options, only to find that it's significantly easier to immigrate into other countries (like Canada). Two months ago I got an offer from a Dutch company (even with them knowing about my degree issue), and I'm moving to Amsterdam next week. Last month I spent two weeks in California, and, with this new reality, saw the whole place with new eyes. After the glamour wears off, you realize that the other options might be even better, specially after you see that some countries are much more welcoming to immigrants.

simplexion 11y ago
Can I come to Netherlands with you? I am sick of Australia and I enjoy riding bicycles.
- yellowapple 11y ago
  Can I come to the Netherlands with the two of you? I am sick of America and I also enjoy riding bicycles.
  - yetanotheracc 11y ago
    Can I have your apartment when you leave?
    - yellowapple 11y ago
      Sure, if you don't mind living in a place where cost of living is inflated to Bay Area levels.
      - tripzilch 11y ago
        That's mainly a problem for people that can't look further than Amsterdam. Which is not by far the nicest place to live (or visit) in the Netherlands, anyway. It's not the worst place (that's Emmeloord), but randomly picking another spot won't hurt.

mikekchar 11y ago

> Here in Canada we have a much more open immigration policy "Much more open" is a relative term, I suppose. I am a Canadian citizen, born in Canada with all my family (save my wife) living in Canada. I live in Japan with my wife who is Japanese. A few years ago my wife wanted to move to an English speaking country so that she could improve her English and live abroad. I'll just be plain. It was easier for me to get a visa for myself and my wife to work in the UK than it was to get a visa for my wife in Canada. Had we decided to go to Canada, she would have had to come on a tourist visa. She would have no health care coverage, nor ability to work. After 6 months she would have to apply for an extension to her tourist visa on humanitarian grounds. Her application would be reviewed by a single border guard and could be denied for any or no reason. There is no right of appeal. If her application is denied, she would be barred from entering Canada again thereafter. If she is granted the extension, then she gets another 6 months. After the 6 months are up, she gets to apply for another extension on humanitarian grounds with the same restrictions. After a total of 18 months (and after paying $1500 for the application plus submitting all of our emails together for the last 3 years plus pictures of us together for the last 3 years), she might be granted permanent residence status. That's for my wife! In constrast Japan gave me a 3 year working visa after seeing the paperwork showing that we were married. The application was free and took 1 week to process. I can renew after 3 years. The last time I renewed my visa in Japan (before I was married) they just wanted to know if I was still working and after that gave me a renewal (the entire process took 1 hour and cost the equivalent of $60). After 5 years in the country I can apply for permanent residence status (which is similarly rubber-stampy). In the meantime I get national health care insurance and even a pension. (Note: citizenship is generally difficult to get in Japan, though. You must live in Japan for at least 10 years and you must show that you have integrated with the community). Having said all that, being an immigrant myself I feel that immigration is a privilage not a right. If a country doesn't want immigrants, then that's their business. If you come on a student visa, or on a work visa that is intended to fill gaps in the local economy, then you are expected to return to your home country some day. That's just the way it is. I feel for the guy because I would be devastated if Japan decided not to renew my visa for some reason. I love living here. I hope they invite me to stay permanently, but I still think that it's Japan's right to decide what they want to do.

11y ago

bane 11y ago

I think this is entirely fair. The U.S. is not a country that loves anybody -- not in the way that countries like Denmark does. The U.S. works by mostly just getting out of the way and ignoring you at least compared to other advanced countries. You have more room to succeed or fail here than most other countries, but the government really won't do much to help you either way. Most interactions with the government here aren't all that wonderful no matter who you are. Other countries offer better protections but can be more intrusive in ways that prevent both vast success and failures, with the tradeoff of creating more social stability. The good news is that it seems like both approaches have managed to create great places to live provided you have some baseline understanding of what the place is like. There are a large number of well developed countries I'd be perfectly happy to live in, Canada included, because they offer great (if different) and reasonable living conditions.

cesarbs 11y ago
Could you elaborate on Denmark? I always thought they were really tough on immigration.
- bane 11y ago
  I mean internally, once you get in. Most countries, especially G-20 level countries are very difficult to immigrate to.
- nextos 11y ago
  If you're inside EU it's super easy. But that's hardly news.

karavelov 11y ago

Coming to Ireland is pretty painless and the economic climate is favorable (but not the weather)

sjf 11y ago
Are you sure about that? You still need an employer sponsored work permit, and you can't change jobs without getting a new permit. Then it takes five years before you are eligible for Long Term Residency. You can go from an H1B to a green card in less time if you are not from India or China. Not everyone comes from the EU.

desireco42 11y ago

Thank you for saying this.

log0 11y ago

Just to clarify in case people still have the impression that Canada is good for immigration: Maybe Canada is better than America for immigration, the experience is getting worse. After the new immigration minister came up in July 2013, the government has changed policies to make immigration slow and the path to citizenship much harder. 1) A Labour Market Opinion (LMO), which is required before a work visa, itself used to take 6 weeks in 2008. This process now takes about 6 months (my case, which is not too slow) to 1 year (another friend's case, and plenty of people in forums). For the work visa, add another 2-6 months on top of it, and then you have to apply the temporary resident visa. 2) Path to citizenship (having work visa => permanent residence => citizenship) used to take a total of 4 years (roughly), now is changed to 1 + 2 + 4 (7 years), a significantly longer time frame. I get the feeling that Canada is changing its opinion of welcoming immigrants. Disclaimer: Used to live in Canada, but have left.

dghughes 11y ago
Being born in and still a citizen of a Commonwealth nation should make it easier for OP to emigrate to Canada. (is it still called emigrate if it's from a country not your own to another?)
stormbrew 11y ago
> I get the feeling that Canada is changing its opinion of welcoming immigrants. Well, our government is at any rate. As a Canadian by birth I don't know that I feel we (the citizenry) have had a lot of input into the matter. :/
- rockdoe 11y ago
  You're not a democracy that elects its representatives and government?
  - stormbrew 11y ago
    As with all ostensibly democratic states, there are undemocratic elements that act as a check on various things (including the will of the majority). In Canada we elect representatives to a legislature, and those representatives effectively elect a government. My representative won his seat with about 48% of the riding's vote, which is actually an extremely decisive victory for a representative, most of whom win on pluralities more in the range of 30-45%. In total, approximately 39% of the 61% of the electorate that voted (or 23% of all eligible voters), voted in a legislature where the winning party took 53% of the seats and secured themselves virtually absolute power to enact their legislative agenda for up to 5 years. I won't say we don't live in a democracy, but I do think we live in one that is only barely functional. But to really specifically answer your question (which is actually two questions): I live in a democracy that elects its representatives. I do not live in a democracy that elects its government.

sumedh 11y ago

> move over, find another love, I agree, I wanted to go to US from India but realized that its not going to happen so I went to Australia. Aus immigration is fairly simple process if you have tech background.

nojvek 11y ago
went to Australia. PR took more than 4 years. I gave up hope and started applying for a tech job in US. Now I want to move back to Aus with wife but the partner visa is so broken. I have to move to Australia, my wife has to move back to her home country. She applies, the govt decides whether we will reunite again or not after 6-12 months. They charge $4500 application fee that is non-refundable. Aus immigration is equally as broken.
- sumedh 11y ago
  Ahh yes, I forgot about the partner visa, yes I agree its broken. Why did your PR take 4 years?

skbohra123 11y ago

Minor nit pick, 'losing' not 'loosing'.

deerpig 11y ago

> non-reciprocal love Very true... same thing happened to me in Thailand -- 16 years there and finally got tired of the government's xenophobia and relentless efforts to push foreigners out of the country. I am an American citizen, and the more I think of it, that is one reason I left America too.... Best to embrace a personal identity as an expat. It's a tribe or sorts, but it's more a state of mind. You lived in America as an immigrant. Live there as an expat, the attitude will free you, safe in the knowledge that if things really get bad, you can always find another place that /will/ love you... until they don't :)