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2. I know this is anecdotal, but when I was unemployed I often didn't socialize because I simply couldn't afford the luxury. Many social activities are fairly e

by benaiah 11y ago

2. I know this is anecdotal, but when I was unemployed I often didn't socialize because I simply couldn't afford the luxury. Many social activities are fairly expensive, depending on your area, friends, and preferences.

falcolas 11y ago
Yeah, this came to mind as well. A night at the pub can easily run even a conservative drinker $20+, doing this every night (even when working) would be hard. And those costs appear in other activites as well - renting a field/equipment to play ball, renting a bowling lane, green fees for golf, tickets for events...
- markyc 11y ago
  hiking, biking/rollerscating, enjoying a picnic, having friends over for card/board games, having a lan party are also valid and cheap/free alternatives :)
  - benaiah 11y ago
    None of the things that you mentioned, card games excepted, are particularly cheap unless you already have the equipment, and some not even then.
    - markyc 11y ago
      I regularly practice each of them and barely spend any money hiking: I just do light hiking, and all I need is a couple of sandwiches, a backpack and my boots. And plenty of water. Plenty of hills/mountains around helps, that's true biking/rollerscating: you can get a decent used bike for about $100 picnic: just the food, and you need to eat anyway board games: unless you need to switch the game every week I'd say you're covered with about $50 per year. We mainly play Settlers of Catan and Chess lan party: I guess it depends on the games, we don't do this much anymore, but we're pretty old school when we do (CS, Starcraft 1, Worms World Party) There's probably lots of other activities like that, for example we play soccer/foot tennis on a public field, and all it costs us is the price of the ball
      - Retra 11y ago
        I'm unemployed right now and I won't do any of those. Here's why: Hiking: Buy boots and suitable clothes. Fuel to get to suitable location. Biking/Rollerskating: Buy equipment. Fuel to get to suitable location. Picnic: transportation supplies. Fuel to get to suitable location. Board games: Expensive. Fuel to get to suitable location. Lan party: Buy games. Fuel to get to suitable location. All it costs is fuel, utilities, rent, and food. For someone with no income, that is all I can spend money on, and it has to be justifiable. Not "Oh, I play board games every once in a while", because I don't want to have to pass up on a job interview because I stupidly spent my transportation money on board games. Or whatever else.
        cactusface 11y ago
        Why doesn't a bike save you a lot of money on fuel? Keeping a car on the road is expensive, you can save on insurance too. Also you can take the bus. I know, it's a pain.
        Retra 11y ago
        I'm not going to sell my car until I have a permanent place to live.
        markyc 11y ago
        I hear what you're saying and I guess it applies for large cities (somewhat), but in our smaller city (~100k people) we just walk places. 15-25 minutes is just fun, especially in the warm season. Picnics, games, sports, lan parties, we just do them at home or on the public domain hiking and other stuff needs some transportation, we either go with public transport or carpooling I'm not saying I understand your situation, just that you don't necessarily need to spend a lot of money (or any) to have some fun with friends.
- __z 11y ago
  My biggest expense of a night at the pub is the cab ride to and from the pub since if I am going to drink I can't drive myself there. We don't have public transport.
waxymonkeyfrog 11y ago
Great point. This gets at the impossible endogeneity of the subject. Are the jobless miserable because they're poor, lonely, bored, or distraught? Well, perhaps they are lonely and bored because they can't afford to socialize. And perhaps they're distraught because they're failing to live up to a cultural expectation that, with more wealth and more redistribution, wouldn't exist. Etc etc. One last thing, apropos of nothing except my stream-of-consciousness typing and the feeling that somebody might bring it up here, is that some people have pointed out to me on Twitter that I should have studied students or retired people, who both seem pretty happy and don't work. I don't accept the comparison. Students essentially have a job with school and a camaraderie on campus that the unemployed have lost when they lose the water cooler. (It is, perhaps, important to note that people choose to go to school in order to find a job, and what happens to college attendance if the expectation of full-time work takes a hit?) Retirees, for their part, do seem happy overall, but those with comfortable retirements are living on savings that they earned through work and they have the pride of having worked to earn their retirement. This is one of the hardest things about imagining the demise of a full-time workforce: Where else could this sort of pride come from?
- falcolas 11y ago
  > Where else could this sort of pride come from? You're still focused on a person only being able to gain value to society by working. You're also conflating working to survive (our day jobs) with doing tasks or that you would can choose to do (the student attending a class, the retiree building sawhorses, the 20 something contributing to OSS, the full time homemaker). Not being required to do the first doesn't mean you're suddenly not doing the second as well.

by benaiah 11y ago

falcolas 11y ago

Yeah, this came to mind as well. A night at the pub can easily run even a conservative drinker $20+, doing this every night (even when working) would be hard. And those costs appear in other activites as well - renting a field/equipment to play ball, renting a bowling lane, green fees for golf, tickets for events...

markyc 11y ago
hiking, biking/rollerscating, enjoying a picnic, having friends over for card/board games, having a lan party are also valid and cheap/free alternatives :)
- benaiah 11y ago
  None of the things that you mentioned, card games excepted, are particularly cheap unless you already have the equipment, and some not even then.
  - markyc 11y ago
    I regularly practice each of them and barely spend any money hiking: I just do light hiking, and all I need is a couple of sandwiches, a backpack and my boots. And plenty of water. Plenty of hills/mountains around helps, that's true biking/rollerscating: you can get a decent used bike for about $100 picnic: just the food, and you need to eat anyway board games: unless you need to switch the game every week I'd say you're covered with about $50 per year. We mainly play Settlers of Catan and Chess lan party: I guess it depends on the games, we don't do this much anymore, but we're pretty old school when we do (CS, Starcraft 1, Worms World Party) There's probably lots of other activities like that, for example we play soccer/foot tennis on a public field, and all it costs us is the price of the ball
    - Retra 11y ago
      I'm unemployed right now and I won't do any of those. Here's why: Hiking: Buy boots and suitable clothes. Fuel to get to suitable location. Biking/Rollerskating: Buy equipment. Fuel to get to suitable location. Picnic: transportation supplies. Fuel to get to suitable location. Board games: Expensive. Fuel to get to suitable location. Lan party: Buy games. Fuel to get to suitable location. All it costs is fuel, utilities, rent, and food. For someone with no income, that is all I can spend money on, and it has to be justifiable. Not "Oh, I play board games every once in a while", because I don't want to have to pass up on a job interview because I stupidly spent my transportation money on board games. Or whatever else.
      - cactusface 11y ago
        Why doesn't a bike save you a lot of money on fuel? Keeping a car on the road is expensive, you can save on insurance too. Also you can take the bus. I know, it's a pain.
        Retra 11y ago
        I'm not going to sell my car until I have a permanent place to live.
      - markyc 11y ago
        I hear what you're saying and I guess it applies for large cities (somewhat), but in our smaller city (~100k people) we just walk places. 15-25 minutes is just fun, especially in the warm season. Picnics, games, sports, lan parties, we just do them at home or on the public domain hiking and other stuff needs some transportation, we either go with public transport or carpooling I'm not saying I understand your situation, just that you don't necessarily need to spend a lot of money (or any) to have some fun with friends.
__z 11y ago
My biggest expense of a night at the pub is the cab ride to and from the pub since if I am going to drink I can't drive myself there. We don't have public transport.

waxymonkeyfrog 11y ago

Great point. This gets at the impossible endogeneity of the subject. Are the jobless miserable because they're poor, lonely, bored, or distraught? Well, perhaps they are lonely and bored because they can't afford to socialize. And perhaps they're distraught because they're failing to live up to a cultural expectation that, with more wealth and more redistribution, wouldn't exist. Etc etc. One last thing, apropos of nothing except my stream-of-consciousness typing and the feeling that somebody might bring it up here, is that some people have pointed out to me on Twitter that I should have studied students or retired people, who both seem pretty happy and don't work. I don't accept the comparison. Students essentially have a job with school and a camaraderie on campus that the unemployed have lost when they lose the water cooler. (It is, perhaps, important to note that people choose to go to school in order to find a job, and what happens to college attendance if the expectation of full-time work takes a hit?) Retirees, for their part, do seem happy overall, but those with comfortable retirements are living on savings that they earned through work and they have the pride of having worked to earn their retirement. This is one of the hardest things about imagining the demise of a full-time workforce: Where else could this sort of pride come from?

falcolas 11y ago
> Where else could this sort of pride come from? You're still focused on a person only being able to gain value to society by working. You're also conflating working to survive (our day jobs) with doing tasks or that you would can choose to do (the student attending a class, the retiree building sawhorses, the 20 something contributing to OSS, the full time homemaker). Not being required to do the first doesn't mean you're suddenly not doing the second as well.