4 ms·

Yeah, we agree. We don't plan on asking everyone to do hours of work on their own. A lot of people don't have the time. However, we're also seeing a bunch of ap

by ammon 11y ago

Yeah, we agree. We don't plan on asking everyone to do hours of work on their own. A lot of people don't have the time. However, we're also seeing a bunch of applicants who are good programmers, but become really stressed in interviews and do badly (they freeze). These people have trouble getting jobs. What we want to do is offer them the option of doing a larger project on their own, rather than our final interview. I think this might help a lot of people (clearly we have to test this)

rezistik 11y ago
I personally prefer it to a point. My only request when I get this type of interview is that I'm allowed to make the project and requirements public on my github for future interviewers. If I'm doing a free project I feel it's fair.
- ammon 11y ago
  Well, that's hard. Standardizing evaluation (critical to reducing bias) requires that everyone (or a lot of people) see a similar problem. And when someone is working on their own time, I think it's important that there's not working code easily accessible online. Perhaps this can be overcome by asking candidates to talk through their code after they are done
  - hayksaakian 11y ago
    if you change the assessment every so often, you could permit people to release their work eventually.
    - ammon 11y ago
      I like that idea!
    - Silhouette 11y ago
      If someone solved a significant problem at your request, but despite this you did not hire them or otherwise compensate them for that work, I don't see how you have any right either legally or ethically to expect them not to then use the work to advertise what they can do to anyone else. The premise is one-sided enough already (though the argument elsewhere in this HN discussion that it might be preferred by nervous interviewees is an interesting one I haven't noticed before) and I think expecting any sort of loyalty or confidentiality after the process has ended is rather optimistic.
  - rezistik 11y ago
    In most of the work at home projects I've been given there was a ton of available code online, they've primarily been for front-end positions so it's usually "Make a small app using your favorite library" I can't imagine there are that many 3-4 hour projects that won't already have available code. The most important part of an at home project in my opinion is the walk through. The best interview I had asked me to go through the project and explain the what and why I did things and asked for high level understanding of what the framework I chose or the browser/node was doing based on what I wrote. It was an app in React and they went through why I decided to make a component for x, y but not z and then asked if I understood the virtual DOM as a concept. To me that's the best you can do, you need to understand how the programmer thinks about problems, works through them and that they are engaged in the ecosystem at large.
- cogg 11y ago
  I am curious why you have that requirement. What is the fairness you are striving for?
  - orkoden 11y ago
    If I invest time to do something, it better be worth it for me.
    - aphistic 11y ago
      Like getting a job?
  - rezistik 11y ago
    A lot of companies will ask for existing code examples, in this way I can just point them to my example-code github repo and I've had companies use that instead of asking me to do a specific challenge for them.
jbob2000 11y ago
Don't most companies have probation periods? At my company, we have a really easy interview. It's really just a check to make sure you exist, don't have large red flags, and can show up on time. No technical tests, just some light conversation. Then we have a 3 month probation period. This is the "real test". Can you write code? Can you communicate with the team? Do you fit in with the culture? Etc. When we get a bad hire, they usually recognize that they don't fit or aren't working and end up leaving of their own volition. Rarely do we actually have to fire someone.
ddrum001 11y ago
I think this project approach is excellent - this seems to map much better to real experience in a job.
cnp 11y ago
I had an enormous amount of trouble interviewing / whiteboarding initially but I got used to it pretty fast. However, I would still prefer a take home test as I feel its a far better qualifier than an in-person interview.
- ammon 11y ago
  A lot of people feel this way, and I see no reason why it can't be an option at more companies
overgryphon 11y ago
Interview environments are always stressful, but so are other common workplace situations. Being unable to manage stress effectively might contribute to poor on-the-job performance, even for people with great pure coding ability. The process right now seems focused on finding people who are the best at only coding. In the future, do you intend to also consider communication skills? Senior developers act as mentors for junior employees, and often need to coordinate projects across multiple teams.
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  "Stress" is not some monolithic, universal feeling. This line gets trotted out frequently in these discussions, but no one has shown a correlation between the types of stress induced in interview situations and the types of stress induced in whatever situations are typical for your company. I would hesitate to even equate the stress of high-pressure situations in different companies.
  - mirkules 11y ago
    Indeed. I am one of the people that freezes up in interviews. Yet I thrive in stressful work situations, such as customer emergencies (system is down), critical bugs, etc and I resolve the issues quickly precisely because of the right amount of stress. The best way I can describe the difference in stress is with an analogy. When I visited the Grand Canyon and hiked around the mountain, my body literally froze. I couldn't move a muscle even though my mind knew I could do this and hike around. I knew it was irrational, but I was powerless. This is what interviewing feels like - a fear of heights. And with every rejection letter, the fear is reinforced. Stress in the office is like playing competitive sports - it's a challenge rather than percieved harm to oneself.
- foobarqux 11y ago
  Interview stress is of the type I call "defusing the bomb": everything at stake, essentially immediate time constraints and confrontational. This never occurs in real life.
  - 11y ago
kking50 11y ago
Giving an option is an awesome idea! It says a lot about the flexibility and open-mindedness of your company. Too many companies have a "take it or leave it" interview processes. IMO it depends on the position. I did a test-project with a follow up code review for my first job and it was a fantastic. If I had not gotten the job, I still would have been happy with the experience and code to show future employers. If you are interviewing for a more junior or senior position, many candidates are probably switching jobs and are already swamped with work. Also, they probably already have some pet projects they can share. Requiring a test project may seem amateurish.

by ammon 11y ago

rezistik 11y ago

I personally prefer it to a point. My only request when I get this type of interview is that I'm allowed to make the project and requirements public on my github for future interviewers. If I'm doing a free project I feel it's fair.

ammon 11y ago
Well, that's hard. Standardizing evaluation (critical to reducing bias) requires that everyone (or a lot of people) see a similar problem. And when someone is working on their own time, I think it's important that there's not working code easily accessible online. Perhaps this can be overcome by asking candidates to talk through their code after they are done
- hayksaakian 11y ago
  if you change the assessment every so often, you could permit people to release their work eventually.
  - ammon 11y ago
    I like that idea!
  - Silhouette 11y ago
    If someone solved a significant problem at your request, but despite this you did not hire them or otherwise compensate them for that work, I don't see how you have any right either legally or ethically to expect them not to then use the work to advertise what they can do to anyone else. The premise is one-sided enough already (though the argument elsewhere in this HN discussion that it might be preferred by nervous interviewees is an interesting one I haven't noticed before) and I think expecting any sort of loyalty or confidentiality after the process has ended is rather optimistic.
- rezistik 11y ago
  In most of the work at home projects I've been given there was a ton of available code online, they've primarily been for front-end positions so it's usually "Make a small app using your favorite library" I can't imagine there are that many 3-4 hour projects that won't already have available code. The most important part of an at home project in my opinion is the walk through. The best interview I had asked me to go through the project and explain the what and why I did things and asked for high level understanding of what the framework I chose or the browser/node was doing based on what I wrote. It was an app in React and they went through why I decided to make a component for x, y but not z and then asked if I understood the virtual DOM as a concept. To me that's the best you can do, you need to understand how the programmer thinks about problems, works through them and that they are engaged in the ecosystem at large.
cogg 11y ago
I am curious why you have that requirement. What is the fairness you are striving for?
- orkoden 11y ago
  If I invest time to do something, it better be worth it for me.
  - aphistic 11y ago
    Like getting a job?
- rezistik 11y ago
  A lot of companies will ask for existing code examples, in this way I can just point them to my example-code github repo and I've had companies use that instead of asking me to do a specific challenge for them.

jbob2000 11y ago

Don't most companies have probation periods? At my company, we have a really easy interview. It's really just a check to make sure you exist, don't have large red flags, and can show up on time. No technical tests, just some light conversation. Then we have a 3 month probation period. This is the "real test". Can you write code? Can you communicate with the team? Do you fit in with the culture? Etc. When we get a bad hire, they usually recognize that they don't fit or aren't working and end up leaving of their own volition. Rarely do we actually have to fire someone.

ddrum001 11y ago

I think this project approach is excellent - this seems to map much better to real experience in a job.

cnp 11y ago

I had an enormous amount of trouble interviewing / whiteboarding initially but I got used to it pretty fast. However, I would still prefer a take home test as I feel its a far better qualifier than an in-person interview.

ammon 11y ago
A lot of people feel this way, and I see no reason why it can't be an option at more companies

overgryphon 11y ago

Interview environments are always stressful, but so are other common workplace situations. Being unable to manage stress effectively might contribute to poor on-the-job performance, even for people with great pure coding ability. The process right now seems focused on finding people who are the best at only coding. In the future, do you intend to also consider communication skills? Senior developers act as mentors for junior employees, and often need to coordinate projects across multiple teams.

vonmoltke 11y ago
"Stress" is not some monolithic, universal feeling. This line gets trotted out frequently in these discussions, but no one has shown a correlation between the types of stress induced in interview situations and the types of stress induced in whatever situations are typical for your company. I would hesitate to even equate the stress of high-pressure situations in different companies.
- mirkules 11y ago
  Indeed. I am one of the people that freezes up in interviews. Yet I thrive in stressful work situations, such as customer emergencies (system is down), critical bugs, etc and I resolve the issues quickly precisely because of the right amount of stress. The best way I can describe the difference in stress is with an analogy. When I visited the Grand Canyon and hiked around the mountain, my body literally froze. I couldn't move a muscle even though my mind knew I could do this and hike around. I knew it was irrational, but I was powerless. This is what interviewing feels like - a fear of heights. And with every rejection letter, the fear is reinforced. Stress in the office is like playing competitive sports - it's a challenge rather than percieved harm to oneself.
foobarqux 11y ago
Interview stress is of the type I call "defusing the bomb": everything at stake, essentially immediate time constraints and confrontational. This never occurs in real life.
- 11y ago

kking50 11y ago

Giving an option is an awesome idea! It says a lot about the flexibility and open-mindedness of your company. Too many companies have a "take it or leave it" interview processes. IMO it depends on the position. I did a test-project with a follow up code review for my first job and it was a fantastic. If I had not gotten the job, I still would have been happy with the experience and code to show future employers. If you are interviewing for a more junior or senior position, many candidates are probably switching jobs and are already swamped with work. Also, they probably already have some pet projects they can share. Requiring a test project may seem amateurish.