6 ms·

The problem is that our system is incredibly racist and classist. Here's an example of a teenager who spent 3 years at Ryker's Island before his trial: http://w

The problem is that our system is incredibly racist and classist. Here's an example of a teenager who spent 3 years at Ryker's Island before his trial: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law. If he had plead guilty, he would have spent _less_ time in prison. The poor don't get to sit at home and wait for their trial, they get to sit in prison and wait for their trial. The rich get to go home and live their lives while their lawyers push back.

kej 11y ago
In case you didn't see it, there's an unhappy update to that story: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/kalief-browder-1993-2015 http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/kalief-browder-1993-...
- spinlock 11y ago
  That's so sad. I don't know what we expect from our jails but it's pretty plain that it either hardens or breaks people.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  I hope to see heads roll over this. Some have spent more time in pretrial detention than their maximum potential sentence would have been if found guilty. I don't understand how this could go on for so long when we have a 6th amendment.
tptacek 11y ago
Which way do you want to have it? Kalief Browder endured the kafka-esque nightmare product of an overburdened criminal court system. Plea bargains keep 95+% of the overall case load out of that system. You can have less plea bargaining and more court overhead, or you can have more plea bargaining and fewer delays for trials. There is a huge problem with the US criminal court system (I personally think it's almost entirely product of ludicrous oversentencing, the product of the 1970s-1980s "war on crime"). But I don't think it's helpful to point fingers at parts of the process that are unrelated to those problems.
- spinlock 11y ago
  I think you misunderstand the problem. If you can afford to buy your way out of jail, you have a much easier time awaiting your trial. This isn't about plea-bargains vs trials, it's about properly setting bail so that everyone has the same opportunity to post bail and await for a fair trial at home.
- xtrumanx 11y ago
  > You can have less plea bargaining and more court overhead, or you can have more plea bargaining and fewer delays for trials. That sounds like a classic false dichotomy. How about less plea bargaining and more resources for the courts so they don't have require massive delays to deliver justice. I doubt you'd feel the current system was just if you experienced what Browder went through. How about a little empathy.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Can I ask that before accusing me of lacking empathy you read my whole comment, and not just the part you disagree with? I certainly don't think the current system is just. I simply disagree with you about the best way to fix it. In particular: my argument is that your proposed fix will actually make things worse for the Kalief Browders of the country.
    - fineman 11y ago
      It'll only make it worse for the accused if we stop (as we have) enforcing the right to speedy trials. The real problem is that there aren't any downsides for prosecutors when they overreach. It's perfectly fair that they get a pass for presenting society's side in a trial but when they get to wield plea bargains for the sole benefit of their own career it's nearly privateering.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        Sure, but again, I think that's a consequence of absurd sentencing laws --- laws that are not in fact even reflective of how offenders are sentenced, but leave prosecutors with wildly inflated sentencing parameters to use as negotiating leverage.
will_brown 11y ago
I had a some what similar issue in immigration law a number of years back. In short, my Client was convicted of a crime in NJ, after serving the sentence, he was detained by ICE and transferred to Krome Detention Facility in Miami, FL. He sat there for over 18 months detained waiting for the removal (deportation) proceedings, there are no speedy trial rights in deportation. The real irony here is before I took the case, the Client tried to waive the proceeding motioning the Court for voluntary departure [1], basically agreeing to pay his own way back to his home country without trial, but ICE objected because they wanted to win at trial and have my Client barred from reentry. The twist is, without an attorney my Client won the trial because by law was clear the underlying crime did not subject my Client to removal proceedings...and of course without any legal justification ICE appealed which is around the time I took the case pro bono...after everything my Client still wanted to just voluntarily leave the Country, forego the appeal just to get the hell out of Krome/detention and even having lost the trial ICE and not much of a chance on appeal, against my advice I motioned again for Voluntary Departure and ICE still objected. [1] http://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/voluntary-departure http://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/voluntary-departure

kej 11y ago

In case you didn't see it, there's an unhappy update to that story: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/kalief-browder-1993-2015 http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/kalief-browder-1993-...

spinlock 11y ago
That's so sad. I don't know what we expect from our jails but it's pretty plain that it either hardens or breaks people.
fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
I hope to see heads roll over this. Some have spent more time in pretrial detention than their maximum potential sentence would have been if found guilty. I don't understand how this could go on for so long when we have a 6th amendment.

tptacek 11y ago

Which way do you want to have it? Kalief Browder endured the kafka-esque nightmare product of an overburdened criminal court system. Plea bargains keep 95+% of the overall case load out of that system. You can have less plea bargaining and more court overhead, or you can have more plea bargaining and fewer delays for trials. There is a huge problem with the US criminal court system (I personally think it's almost entirely product of ludicrous oversentencing, the product of the 1970s-1980s "war on crime"). But I don't think it's helpful to point fingers at parts of the process that are unrelated to those problems.

spinlock 11y ago
I think you misunderstand the problem. If you can afford to buy your way out of jail, you have a much easier time awaiting your trial. This isn't about plea-bargains vs trials, it's about properly setting bail so that everyone has the same opportunity to post bail and await for a fair trial at home.
xtrumanx 11y ago
> You can have less plea bargaining and more court overhead, or you can have more plea bargaining and fewer delays for trials. That sounds like a classic false dichotomy. How about less plea bargaining and more resources for the courts so they don't have require massive delays to deliver justice. I doubt you'd feel the current system was just if you experienced what Browder went through. How about a little empathy.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Can I ask that before accusing me of lacking empathy you read my whole comment, and not just the part you disagree with? I certainly don't think the current system is just. I simply disagree with you about the best way to fix it. In particular: my argument is that your proposed fix will actually make things worse for the Kalief Browders of the country.
  - fineman 11y ago
    It'll only make it worse for the accused if we stop (as we have) enforcing the right to speedy trials. The real problem is that there aren't any downsides for prosecutors when they overreach. It's perfectly fair that they get a pass for presenting society's side in a trial but when they get to wield plea bargains for the sole benefit of their own career it's nearly privateering.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Sure, but again, I think that's a consequence of absurd sentencing laws --- laws that are not in fact even reflective of how offenders are sentenced, but leave prosecutors with wildly inflated sentencing parameters to use as negotiating leverage.

will_brown 11y ago

I had a some what similar issue in immigration law a number of years back. In short, my Client was convicted of a crime in NJ, after serving the sentence, he was detained by ICE and transferred to Krome Detention Facility in Miami, FL. He sat there for over 18 months detained waiting for the removal (deportation) proceedings, there are no speedy trial rights in deportation. The real irony here is before I took the case, the Client tried to waive the proceeding motioning the Court for voluntary departure [1], basically agreeing to pay his own way back to his home country without trial, but ICE objected because they wanted to win at trial and have my Client barred from reentry. The twist is, without an attorney my Client won the trial because by law was clear the underlying crime did not subject my Client to removal proceedings...and of course without any legal justification ICE appealed which is around the time I took the case pro bono...after everything my Client still wanted to just voluntarily leave the Country, forego the appeal just to get the hell out of Krome/detention and even having lost the trial ICE and not much of a chance on appeal, against my advice I motioned again for Voluntary Departure and ICE still objected. [1] http://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/voluntary-departure http://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/voluntary-departure