5 ms·

Saying "NO"

91 points by fogus 17y ago

j_baker 17y ago
I wish I could vote this up 100 times. The first rule of requirements gathering: the customer doesn't know what they want. You have to tell them.
- run4yourlives 17y ago
  While I'm not disagreeing with needing to say no to a client, the moment you figure you know everything they want or more importantly, need, YOU are the one with the problem. There are numerous examples of programmers/providers figuring that they know what the customer needs. They're called enterprise software.
  - j_baker 17y ago
    There's a difference between telling people what they want and telling people that they want something that they don't want. You have to listen to them. But bear in mind that if they
- zb 17y ago
  Well, you can't tell them. You have to lead them on a journey that ends with you both finding out.
- jon_dahl 17y ago
  Obligatory Henry Ford quote: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."
jsdalton 17y ago
The comic referenced at the top of the article was good for a laugh or two: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell
- markpercival 17y ago
  I think it also illustrates where this article goes wrong. You don't say NO to the client, you say NO to a potential customer before they become the client. Citing the second part of the comic - Client: "Our last designer was an IDIOT". Then the next appropriate question is - What idiot hired/managed him? You're about to become the 'last designer'
  - RyanMcGreal 17y ago
    > You don't say NO to the client, you say NO to a potential customer before they become the client. This is critical, and it's fairly easy to recognize potential 'problem clients' when there's still time to escape.
    - TravisLS 17y ago
      Or just make sure you have an escape clause in your contract. Maybe the last designer actually was an idiot. I've found that if you behave like the doctor (in the article) it's often quite easy to steer the course of projects with even very difficult clients.
- thetrumanshow 17y ago
  The part in the comic about the client photoshopping the design a bit seems fine to me, as long as they are just moving components around the screen (switching column locations, etc). I wouldn't blanketly suggest it is bad for the client to do this, since it may be easier to communicate what they want in photoshop than in text.
  - dustingetz 17y ago
    the comic doesn't suggest that its blanketly bad either.
- nkurz 17y ago
  It was an entertaining comic, but I agreed much more with Uncle Bob, the author of the linked article. The comic said: "The client has completely forgotten that they hired you, the web designer, to build them a great product." Whereas I see: "You have forgotten that the client is paying you to build a site which best represents the business in which they are the domain expert."
deleted 17y ago
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amix 17y ago
I think designers have this problem since anyone can have opinions about design. It's also hard to argue objectively why one design should be better than another, since design is subjective (for most parts). Maybe the design process should be more "Google like" and include more design patterns that are field tested. The basic principle should be to use data to back up claims instead of subjective arguments. An example, if the customer wants an "intro page", then point to a "anti pattern" that argues against intro pages. Etc.
- dschobel 17y ago
  Couldn't you just defer to functionality when pressed on a design decision? If you can't justify your decisions then I'd say having to humor the client is fair-game.
- derefr 17y ago
  Design patterns are fine, but a bit theoretical for most people. Everyone will say "sure, that's true in general, but I think we'll get it right, because of blah blah blah..." I much prefer A/B testing each individual change and showing the client how many of their customers think something is an anti-pattern.
holdenc 17y ago
If you find yourself saying no a lot you need new clients, or a new line of work. Being a designer is hard, and so is finding good clients. As an aside -- nightmare clients tend to crop up more on projects with thin margins. If you are taking on a new client, make sure the margins are not thin.
edw519 17y ago
This is interesting, the comic makes it kinda cute, but OP's conclusion is exactly the opposite of what I firmly believe. I have learned over the years that the best way to win and keep quality business is to find a way to say "YES". Buyers of software products, like small children, hear one word more than any other: "no". "No, it can't be done." "No we don't do that." "No, if you did that it would screw up everything else." "No, that's stupid" It doesn't matter if you're right, all that matters is that you're just another person saying "no". You differentiate yourself from others by giving the exact same answer, but with the word "yes" instead of "no". "Yes, in order to do that, we'd also want to look at..." "Yes, let's make it 'pop' using some of the things we bring to the table..." "Yes, no one even thought about that, and we should now before we get any further into this thing..." or even the extreme: "Yes, there's a way to do that. No one has ever done that before, so now is the time for someone to be first..." As I've told my customers many times, "The answer is always 'Yes'. You may not want to do it once you understand what it will take, but the answer is still 'yes'." No other word has helped me more to find myself and do my best work for others.
- ptn 17y ago
  When you say no to some things, you obviously have to think about what to say no to. It helps you prioritize and focus on the most important stuff first. Only when you've stripped down an idea to it's bare minimum can you really say that you understand it. "Yes, there's a way to do that. No one has ever done that before, so now is the time for someone to be first..." This sounds dangerous. What one really wants is to add stuff that will be useful to the user and will help him get things done easier. If the client proposes a feature and you say yes because "it's the time for someone to be first", then you are wasting time and effort on something that maybe isn't really necessary.
- lsc 17y ago
  huh. I guess I am more 'product oriented' than you are, but I tell people 'no' when they want passwords rather than ssh keys to access their out of band console. I imagine it would be different if I was charging by the hour, but I'm not. But this is part of why I like being a product company. I do my R&D on my own time, without an angry customer if it fails or if I take longer than I thought. "Here" I say, "are the products I've sold to hundreds of other people. I can sell these to you, too." Then I add "If you want something else, suggest it, I might add that as a product as well, then I will sell it to you and others who want it at a low cost, but I'm not going to make it just for you." (of course, being a product company, if I screw up production, I have many, many angry customers.) For me, this has largely solved the problem of not estimating correctly and/or managing customer expectations. Here is what I have. you don't like it? Oh, I'm sorry. would you like a refund?
byrneseyeview 17y ago
Part of this is just diplomacy. Don't say "No," just figure out what results they want, not just what actions they've asked you to take; http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a-client/ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a-clien...
deleted 17y ago
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city41 17y ago
In a previous lifetime, I was a graphic designer working at the Field Museum in Chicago. Fresh out of college and my first task was to design a logo for a client. I was eager to please, and I came up with about 10 logo ideas. I showed them to the client and all hell broke loose. They basically wanted a "super" logo that combined all 10 ideas, plus their own ideas, and I found myself in a very awkward situation of trying to figure out how to tell them that's a really bad idea. After the ordeal was done, my boss said "Yeah, next time, only show them two."
jon_dahl 17y ago
Four techniques for saying "No" without your client knowing it: 1. Tell them how much something will cost. "Great idea! A live chat widget will cost another $20,000. What do you think?" 2. Make them prioritize. Pick things that you know are more important. "How should we prioritize that change compared to paid subscriptions and the Help system?" 3. Make them remember. Put it on the backlog and don't start it until they ask for it again. 4. Offer them alternatives. We once had a client who wanted native Excel exports of reports. We suggested either CSV exports or HTML table exports, which Excel can read. (This is more "no" to features than to design decisions, but the principal is similar.)
- dschobel 17y ago
  Great points, #2-4 work in the enterprise world as well.
- jhancock 17y ago
  Absolutely!! The answer is always yes, sometimes qualified. The only no is when you decide you don't want them as a client and you find a reason to not do further work.
Raphael_Amiard 17y ago
The problem with his rationale regarding the very comic he's talking about, is that every body and their mothers think they got a clue about design, and that they know what is beautiful better than you . Most of us think that way, and that's what makes designing web sites such a painful job
gsiener 17y ago
I thought this was a review of http://islostarepeat.com http://islostarepeat.com

91 points by fogus 17y ago

I wish I could vote this up 100 times. The first rule of requirements gathering: the customer doesn't know what they want. You have to tell them.

run4yourlives 17y ago
While I'm not disagreeing with needing to say no to a client, the moment you figure you know everything they want or more importantly, need, YOU are the one with the problem. There are numerous examples of programmers/providers figuring that they know what the customer needs. They're called enterprise software.
- j_baker 17y ago
  There's a difference between telling people what they want and telling people that they want something that they don't want. You have to listen to them. But bear in mind that if they
zb 17y ago
Well, you can't tell them. You have to lead them on a journey that ends with you both finding out.
jon_dahl 17y ago
Obligatory Henry Ford quote: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

jsdalton 17y ago

The comic referenced at the top of the article was good for a laugh or two: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

markpercival 17y ago
I think it also illustrates where this article goes wrong. You don't say NO to the client, you say NO to a potential customer before they become the client. Citing the second part of the comic - Client: "Our last designer was an IDIOT". Then the next appropriate question is - What idiot hired/managed him? You're about to become the 'last designer'
- RyanMcGreal 17y ago
  > You don't say NO to the client, you say NO to a potential customer before they become the client. This is critical, and it's fairly easy to recognize potential 'problem clients' when there's still time to escape.
  - TravisLS 17y ago
    Or just make sure you have an escape clause in your contract. Maybe the last designer actually was an idiot. I've found that if you behave like the doctor (in the article) it's often quite easy to steer the course of projects with even very difficult clients.
thetrumanshow 17y ago
The part in the comic about the client photoshopping the design a bit seems fine to me, as long as they are just moving components around the screen (switching column locations, etc). I wouldn't blanketly suggest it is bad for the client to do this, since it may be easier to communicate what they want in photoshop than in text.
- dustingetz 17y ago
  the comic doesn't suggest that its blanketly bad either.
nkurz 17y ago
It was an entertaining comic, but I agreed much more with Uncle Bob, the author of the linked article. The comic said: "The client has completely forgotten that they hired you, the web designer, to build them a great product." Whereas I see: "You have forgotten that the client is paying you to build a site which best represents the business in which they are the domain expert."

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

amix 17y ago

I think designers have this problem since anyone can have opinions about design. It's also hard to argue objectively why one design should be better than another, since design is subjective (for most parts). Maybe the design process should be more "Google like" and include more design patterns that are field tested. The basic principle should be to use data to back up claims instead of subjective arguments. An example, if the customer wants an "intro page", then point to a "anti pattern" that argues against intro pages. Etc.

dschobel 17y ago
Couldn't you just defer to functionality when pressed on a design decision? If you can't justify your decisions then I'd say having to humor the client is fair-game.
derefr 17y ago
Design patterns are fine, but a bit theoretical for most people. Everyone will say "sure, that's true in general, but I think we'll get it right, because of blah blah blah..." I much prefer A/B testing each individual change and showing the client how many of their customers think something is an anti-pattern.

holdenc 17y ago

If you find yourself saying no a lot you need new clients, or a new line of work. Being a designer is hard, and so is finding good clients. As an aside -- nightmare clients tend to crop up more on projects with thin margins. If you are taking on a new client, make sure the margins are not thin.

edw519 17y ago

This is interesting, the comic makes it kinda cute, but OP's conclusion is exactly the opposite of what I firmly believe. I have learned over the years that the best way to win and keep quality business is to find a way to say "YES". Buyers of software products, like small children, hear one word more than any other: "no". "No, it can't be done." "No we don't do that." "No, if you did that it would screw up everything else." "No, that's stupid" It doesn't matter if you're right, all that matters is that you're just another person saying "no". You differentiate yourself from others by giving the exact same answer, but with the word "yes" instead of "no". "Yes, in order to do that, we'd also want to look at..." "Yes, let's make it 'pop' using some of the things we bring to the table..." "Yes, no one even thought about that, and we should now before we get any further into this thing..." or even the extreme: "Yes, there's a way to do that. No one has ever done that before, so now is the time for someone to be first..." As I've told my customers many times, "The answer is always 'Yes'. You may not want to do it once you understand what it will take, but the answer is still 'yes'." No other word has helped me more to find myself and do my best work for others.

ptn 17y ago
When you say no to some things, you obviously have to think about what to say no to. It helps you prioritize and focus on the most important stuff first. Only when you've stripped down an idea to it's bare minimum can you really say that you understand it. "Yes, there's a way to do that. No one has ever done that before, so now is the time for someone to be first..." This sounds dangerous. What one really wants is to add stuff that will be useful to the user and will help him get things done easier. If the client proposes a feature and you say yes because "it's the time for someone to be first", then you are wasting time and effort on something that maybe isn't really necessary.
lsc 17y ago
huh. I guess I am more 'product oriented' than you are, but I tell people 'no' when they want passwords rather than ssh keys to access their out of band console. I imagine it would be different if I was charging by the hour, but I'm not. But this is part of why I like being a product company. I do my R&D on my own time, without an angry customer if it fails or if I take longer than I thought. "Here" I say, "are the products I've sold to hundreds of other people. I can sell these to you, too." Then I add "If you want something else, suggest it, I might add that as a product as well, then I will sell it to you and others who want it at a low cost, but I'm not going to make it just for you." (of course, being a product company, if I screw up production, I have many, many angry customers.) For me, this has largely solved the problem of not estimating correctly and/or managing customer expectations. Here is what I have. you don't like it? Oh, I'm sorry. would you like a refund?

byrneseyeview 17y ago

Part of this is just diplomacy. Don't say "No," just figure out what results they want, not just what actions they've asked you to take; http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a-client/ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/how-not-to-say-no-to-a-clien...

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

city41 17y ago

In a previous lifetime, I was a graphic designer working at the Field Museum in Chicago. Fresh out of college and my first task was to design a logo for a client. I was eager to please, and I came up with about 10 logo ideas. I showed them to the client and all hell broke loose. They basically wanted a "super" logo that combined all 10 ideas, plus their own ideas, and I found myself in a very awkward situation of trying to figure out how to tell them that's a really bad idea. After the ordeal was done, my boss said "Yeah, next time, only show them two."

jon_dahl 17y ago

Four techniques for saying "No" without your client knowing it: 1. Tell them how much something will cost. "Great idea! A live chat widget will cost another $20,000. What do you think?" 2. Make them prioritize. Pick things that you know are more important. "How should we prioritize that change compared to paid subscriptions and the Help system?" 3. Make them remember. Put it on the backlog and don't start it until they ask for it again. 4. Offer them alternatives. We once had a client who wanted native Excel exports of reports. We suggested either CSV exports or HTML table exports, which Excel can read. (This is more "no" to features than to design decisions, but the principal is similar.)

dschobel 17y ago
Great points, #2-4 work in the enterprise world as well.
jhancock 17y ago
Absolutely!! The answer is always yes, sometimes qualified. The only no is when you decide you don't want them as a client and you find a reason to not do further work.

Raphael_Amiard 17y ago

The problem with his rationale regarding the very comic he's talking about, is that every body and their mothers think they got a clue about design, and that they know what is beautiful better than you . Most of us think that way, and that's what makes designing web sites such a painful job

gsiener 17y ago

I thought this was a review of http://islostarepeat.com http://islostarepeat.com