9 ms·

Clean Thesis – A clean, simple, and elegant LaTeX style for thesis documents

176 points by noqqe 11y ago

ginko 11y ago
Isn't the LaTeX stylesheet for your thesis usually dictated by your university? It was for me at least..
- imrehg 11y ago
  Not necessarily, wasn't for me (Oxford, just for specificity). Some universities do mandate, but they do that in .doc format for example. Tell them you write your thesis in LaTeX and often it can be "oh, okay...."
- wodenokoto 11y ago
  No, many universities only require a front page, the rest is up to you. My university doesn't even provide this front page in LaTex ...
  - tormeh 11y ago
    Mine autogenerates the front and just inserts it at the start of my pdf file.
- dagw 11y ago
  My university had a set of stylesheets (.doc, LaTeX and I think InDesign) and set of rules you had to follow if you wanted to make your own stylesheet.
- ccannon 11y ago
  You're right, most universities dictate what style you should use. However, if you wanted to publish your thesis for your own personal use it might be nice to port it to this clean thesis format.
- fdej 11y ago
  In my case, I only had to use a predetermined stylesheet for the title page. I've heard of one university (there must be others) where there's a thick compendium that specifies exactly which font to use where on each page, what spacings and margins to use, how to format the table of contents, etc. Not actually a LaTeX stylesheet you can use, but a list of rules that you manually have to make sure your thesis conforms with. Of course, the rules were written with MS Word in mind, but math/CS/science people who need to use LaTeX have to replicate the rules in detail. Of course, there's a person employed by the university to check that your submitted thesis exactly conforms with the rules, or else it will be rejected. The person who told me this might have embellished the story, but sadly it sounds all too plausible to me.
  - analog31 11y ago
    20+ years ago, my university's formatting rules were pre-computer-age, and the asked a guy in the IT department (a friend of mine) to create e a new set of rules. The new rules were entirely based on MS Word.
- mrweasel 11y ago
  I think ours was just a style one from ACM. IT made it easy to publish papers because the format was already correct.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Steuard 11y ago
  At the University of Chicago, the thesis office didn't give any indication that they'd ever heard of LaTeX. But they did hand us a long list of formatting requirements (precise margins, contents format, lots of other details) and it was clear that any deviation from those would result in your thesis being handed right back to you. Fortunately, there was a LaTeX style file that had been handed around the physics department for years that generations of grad students had tuned to meet the requirements. Doing my part, I tweaked it a bit to handle some special cases that came up in my thesis (and, I think, to clean up the code in one or two places) and passed it on to the next generation. (I shudder to think of how many forks there must have been; I saw at least two or three while I was preparing my version. Maybe someone has put a canonical version on GitHub by now: nothing of the sort was really on our radar back then.)
  - carlob 11y ago
    Put on github instead of passing it down? Might not work for non-comp-sci students that use LaTeX, but are not familiar with git.
    - Steuard 11y ago
      True. I started using Subversion and then Mercurial for writing scientific papers during grad school (a distributed VCS was handy when editing on multiple machines), but it never seemed worth the effort to teach my collaborators how to use them from scratch.
      - carlob 11y ago
        There are lot of people who use Dropbox for its version control features, albeit limited they might be. It might not scale well with many users and branching, but it's probably good enough for two researchers editing the same paper on two different machines in the same office. There might be a market for a good automated multi user version control (no programming required)…
  - Serow225 11y ago
    Same exact story here, I even whipped up a quick web page[1] to share the modifications I made to the stylesheet with other students. Amazingly it looks like the site is still up after 10+ years so kudos to the webmasters, with the files still downloadable and links still alive; looking back on the page is a hilarious nostalgia trip for me, it was written by hand and has a hit counter (of course): [1] http://homepage.usask.ca/~ebs642/ http://homepage.usask.ca/~ebs642/
- thearn4 11y ago
  Yep. For me, the PhD LaTeX stylesheet was a file passed down and updated from graduate student to graduate student for who knows how many decades in my dept.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  It's usually passed down from student to student through departments. Which reminds me: I never put my own patches to the Technion thesis template on a public platform. I need to do that!
- baby 11y ago
  Not at the University of Bordeaux :D
- tonyarkles 11y ago
  Me too. In the comp sci department, at least, one of the professors made a compliant style a long time ago and it continues to get passed around. I'm defending on Thursday and so far there haven't been any real complaints other than a requirement that my figure captions be at the top of the figure instead of the bottom. Not a biggie.
johnchristopher 11y ago
I thought the default style(s) were the results of years of micro tweaking and deep studies of the impact of character positioning and flows by Knuth and that only the default \LaTeX{} style could give that 2% head start or that A instead of a B++ for any essay. Now we add blue titles ? And sans serif font ? Sarcasm apart, it looks good. Some links are 404 on the page though (classic thesis, etc.).
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Maakuth 11y ago
  Indeed, blue titles evoke MS Word. As pointed out, a PDF rendered with this style would be great help in understanding it. Perhaps it's a good choice for on-screen reading, but shouldn't you go with serif typefaces when laying out for print?
  - johnchristopher 11y ago
    A long time ago I did some googling (aka `research') on the subject and indeed I found out that using serif for printed documents is non negotiable ; it's supposed (and I agree with that) to let the eyes decrypt words faster and smoother than when reading sans serif. Oddly enough sans serif is easier to decipher on screens. I don't know yet which kind of fonts I should use on my e-reader though. The web seems to think it's a matter of taste and adequacy nowadays: http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2013/03/serif-vs-sans-the-final-battle/ http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2013/03/serif-vs-sans-the-fi... http://designshack.net/articles/typography/serif-vs-sans-serif-fonts-is-one-really-better-than-the-other/ http://designshack.net/articles/typography/serif-vs-sans-ser... http://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-1/type-anatomy/serif-vs-sans-for-text-in-print http://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-1/type...
    - kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
      Those studies focused on geometric sans serif fonts like Helvetica. Humanist sans fonts have been demonstrated to have higher legibility in print.
gjm11 11y ago
If the creator is reading this: Your web pages would be immediately improved 100% by adding a link to a PDF file generated using this style, showing most of what goes into a typical thesis. (You could use your own thesis for which it was developed, or just a pile of lorem ipsum.) I see that you have links to JPEGs of sample pages, but this would be much better. [EDITED to add: I am not suggesting that you remove the JPEGs. They don't do any harm.]
- noqqe 11y ago
  https://github.com/derric/cleanthesis/blob/master/thesis-example.pdf https://github.com/derric/cleanthesis/blob/master/thesis-exa...
  - gjm11 11y ago
    Excellent!
  - ska 11y ago
    Very strange for me to see an example thesis in latex without any mathematics in it!
- haddr 11y ago
  And a must-have is an example with: - pictures - tables - formulas When you can't find it in the sample PDF, you assume that adding them will be some sort of visual hell...
  - jimmahoney 11y ago
    Yes. And code. Without a LaTex & PDF example that includes all the pieces, the text layout isn't particuluarly interesting.
stared 11y ago
For mine I used KOMA-Script Package (scrbook) http://www.dickimaw-books.com/latex/thesis/thesis-screen.pdf http://www.dickimaw-books.com/latex/thesis/thesis-screen.pdf (and for official documentation: http://www.ctex.org/documents/packages/nonstd/koma-script.pdf http://www.ctex.org/documents/packages/nonstd/koma-script.pd...).
cies 11y ago
A quick look on Github told me you are not using the memoir package for this. Could the author please elaborate why it is not using memoir?
- bhaak 11y ago
  Because he's using scrreprt from KOMAscript as base class.
  - cies 11y ago
    Ah, thanks.
ccannon 11y ago
Stop wasting time coming up with elegant thesis formats and finish your thesis!
- sdoering 11y ago
  What on this site told you he did not already? And why your tone of voice, emanating from your comment?
  - analog31 11y ago
    The only time anybody cares about the formatting of a thesis is when they are not finishing one. ;-)
  - Maybenhabe 11y ago
    He was making a joke.
richerlariviere 11y ago
LaTeX rule them all when it's time to write a thesis. This template is nice. The code is simple so a beginner can start to play with at any moment. Keep working hard I love what you did.
bh13731 11y ago
Another excellent template... https://github.com/kks32/phd-thesis-template https://github.com/kks32/phd-thesis-template
- baby 11y ago
  no example?
  - kxs 11y ago
    https://github.com/kks32/phd-thesis-template/blob/master/thesis.pdf https://github.com/kks32/phd-thesis-template/blob/master/the...
Ftuuky 11y ago
My university dictates the style of a thesis so no chance there but it looks good.
boothead 11y ago
Anyone got a similar resource for self publishing ebooks? I had some stuff hacked together with org-mode and some other bits a while ago, but would like to know of anything better.
- ivan_ah 11y ago
  You can look into softcover/polytexnic here: https://github.com/softcover/softcover https://github.com/softcover/softcover , I believe it had a decent .tex style for a book. Also very powerful pipeline for producing .epub/.mobi from .tex Another excellent style sheet to look into is the Tufre-style book: http://www.latextemplates.com/template/tufte-style-book http://www.latextemplates.com/template/tufte-style-book I'd also be happy to share some of the .tex header I use for my book---just some customizations on the vanilla book documentclass. It's fairly hacky stuff, but it works ;)
  - boothead 11y ago
    Softcover looks awesome. Thanks!
- akeck 11y ago
  It's not LaTeX, but a historian recently posted on HN his work flow for using plaintext and Pandoc for writing papers [1]. I've been using markdown+pandoc [2] for a book of stories for my family. TeX/LateX exerts nearly absolute (albeit, gorgeous) control over layout, whereas e-book readers often provide the reader with many configurable layout options. Thus, e-book formats tend towards a content-with-minimal-layout-hints way of handling layout. I'm finding markdown plus pandoc a good fit for the latter. [1] http://wcm1.web.rice.edu/my-academic-book-in-plain-text.html http://wcm1.web.rice.edu/my-academic-book-in-plain-text.html [2] https://puppetlabs.com/blog/automated-ebook-generation-convert-markdown-epub-mobi-pandoc-kindlegen https://puppetlabs.com/blog/automated-ebook-generation-conve...
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  google for pandoc...
coliveira 11y ago
In many universities the problem is that you need to produce a thesis according to the university specifications. A generic thesis document may help with this, but will unfortunately never solve the complete problem. Fortunately, however, most universities also have a local LaTeX guru, or you can just copy the style used by previous students.
- snowballsteve 11y ago
  Where I did mine, they required submissions in strict word formatting.
  - reagency 11y ago
    What's going to happen whem Word is dead is 20 years and they have all these useless files?
    - tonyarkles 11y ago
      There's a very good chance that they'll end up being transformed into PDFs before being released, and will also end up in print.
zlalanne 11y ago
Anyone have a good template / project for homework assignments that typically have code snippets, graphs, images and formulas?
- analog31 11y ago
  If I were teaching right now, I would gladly accept iPython. It is what I now use for reports containing similar content, doing R&D in industry.
ajarmst 11y ago
Many institutions, including mine, require a very specific style. Many even provide templates. Irritatingly, mine only provided a Word template, so I had to spend a day or two creating a LaTeX style. (Procrastination bonus: I was "working on my thesis" without actually working on my thesis). The mere fact that the provided style uses color would disqualify it as a thesis in many institutions. Also, it's somewhat distasteful that the linked site uses significantly more words on how I can donate for this derivative work than it spends on convincing me to use it.
- asQuirreL 11y ago
  In fairness, the donation is not monetary. It is probably more aptly described as "Contribution".
currysausage 11y ago
http://cleanthesis.der-ric.de/img/ct_toc.jpg http://cleanthesis.der-ric.de/img/ct_toc.jpg Using 2 different sans-serif fonts in the same document (here: Helvetica and the TeX humanist) is usually frowned upon by typographers. One reason is that differences in size, style, color, etc. should always be noticable. Two sans-serif fonts will always look superficially similar; the eye has to get used to different letter forms when it expects the font to stay the same. Beyond that, I think the template is really beautiful. Thanks for sharing!
kanusterkund 11y ago
That's just thesis style infinity + 1, nothing special, a lot of wasted space due to huge numbers.
- brianobush 11y ago
  wasted space = more pages!
kanusterkund 11y ago
That's thesis style infinity out of infinity +1. Nothing special, weird fonts, lots of wasted space.
droffel 11y ago
"This text should contain all letters of the alphabet..." Except for Z and Q. Those don't count.

176 points by noqqe 11y ago

ginko 11y ago

Isn't the LaTeX stylesheet for your thesis usually dictated by your university? It was for me at least..

imrehg 11y ago
Not necessarily, wasn't for me (Oxford, just for specificity). Some universities do mandate, but they do that in .doc format for example. Tell them you write your thesis in LaTeX and often it can be "oh, okay...."
wodenokoto 11y ago
No, many universities only require a front page, the rest is up to you. My university doesn't even provide this front page in LaTex ...
- tormeh 11y ago
  Mine autogenerates the front and just inserts it at the start of my pdf file.
dagw 11y ago
My university had a set of stylesheets (.doc, LaTeX and I think InDesign) and set of rules you had to follow if you wanted to make your own stylesheet.
ccannon 11y ago
You're right, most universities dictate what style you should use. However, if you wanted to publish your thesis for your own personal use it might be nice to port it to this clean thesis format.
fdej 11y ago
In my case, I only had to use a predetermined stylesheet for the title page. I've heard of one university (there must be others) where there's a thick compendium that specifies exactly which font to use where on each page, what spacings and margins to use, how to format the table of contents, etc. Not actually a LaTeX stylesheet you can use, but a list of rules that you manually have to make sure your thesis conforms with. Of course, the rules were written with MS Word in mind, but math/CS/science people who need to use LaTeX have to replicate the rules in detail. Of course, there's a person employed by the university to check that your submitted thesis exactly conforms with the rules, or else it will be rejected. The person who told me this might have embellished the story, but sadly it sounds all too plausible to me.
- analog31 11y ago
  20+ years ago, my university's formatting rules were pre-computer-age, and the asked a guy in the IT department (a friend of mine) to create e a new set of rules. The new rules were entirely based on MS Word.
mrweasel 11y ago
I think ours was just a style one from ACM. IT made it easy to publish papers because the format was already correct.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Steuard 11y ago
At the University of Chicago, the thesis office didn't give any indication that they'd ever heard of LaTeX. But they did hand us a long list of formatting requirements (precise margins, contents format, lots of other details) and it was clear that any deviation from those would result in your thesis being handed right back to you. Fortunately, there was a LaTeX style file that had been handed around the physics department for years that generations of grad students had tuned to meet the requirements. Doing my part, I tweaked it a bit to handle some special cases that came up in my thesis (and, I think, to clean up the code in one or two places) and passed it on to the next generation. (I shudder to think of how many forks there must have been; I saw at least two or three while I was preparing my version. Maybe someone has put a canonical version on GitHub by now: nothing of the sort was really on our radar back then.)
- carlob 11y ago
  Put on github instead of passing it down? Might not work for non-comp-sci students that use LaTeX, but are not familiar with git.
  - Steuard 11y ago
    True. I started using Subversion and then Mercurial for writing scientific papers during grad school (a distributed VCS was handy when editing on multiple machines), but it never seemed worth the effort to teach my collaborators how to use them from scratch.
    - carlob 11y ago
      There are lot of people who use Dropbox for its version control features, albeit limited they might be. It might not scale well with many users and branching, but it's probably good enough for two researchers editing the same paper on two different machines in the same office. There might be a market for a good automated multi user version control (no programming required)…
- Serow225 11y ago
  Same exact story here, I even whipped up a quick web page[1] to share the modifications I made to the stylesheet with other students. Amazingly it looks like the site is still up after 10+ years so kudos to the webmasters, with the files still downloadable and links still alive; looking back on the page is a hilarious nostalgia trip for me, it was written by hand and has a hit counter (of course): [1] http://homepage.usask.ca/~ebs642/ http://homepage.usask.ca/~ebs642/
thearn4 11y ago
Yep. For me, the PhD LaTeX stylesheet was a file passed down and updated from graduate student to graduate student for who knows how many decades in my dept.
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
It's usually passed down from student to student through departments. Which reminds me: I never put my own patches to the Technion thesis template on a public platform. I need to do that!
baby 11y ago
Not at the University of Bordeaux :D
tonyarkles 11y ago
Me too. In the comp sci department, at least, one of the professors made a compliant style a long time ago and it continues to get passed around. I'm defending on Thursday and so far there haven't been any real complaints other than a requirement that my figure captions be at the top of the figure instead of the bottom. Not a biggie.

johnchristopher 11y ago

I thought the default style(s) were the results of years of micro tweaking and deep studies of the impact of character positioning and flows by Knuth and that only the default \LaTeX{} style could give that 2% head start or that A instead of a B++ for any essay. Now we add blue titles ? And sans serif font ? Sarcasm apart, it looks good. Some links are 404 on the page though (classic thesis, etc.).

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Maakuth 11y ago
Indeed, blue titles evoke MS Word. As pointed out, a PDF rendered with this style would be great help in understanding it. Perhaps it's a good choice for on-screen reading, but shouldn't you go with serif typefaces when laying out for print?
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  A long time ago I did some googling (aka `research') on the subject and indeed I found out that using serif for printed documents is non negotiable ; it's supposed (and I agree with that) to let the eyes decrypt words faster and smoother than when reading sans serif. Oddly enough sans serif is easier to decipher on screens. I don't know yet which kind of fonts I should use on my e-reader though. The web seems to think it's a matter of taste and adequacy nowadays: http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2013/03/serif-vs-sans-the-final-battle/ http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2013/03/serif-vs-sans-the-fi... http://designshack.net/articles/typography/serif-vs-sans-serif-fonts-is-one-really-better-than-the-other/ http://designshack.net/articles/typography/serif-vs-sans-ser... http://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-1/type-anatomy/serif-vs-sans-for-text-in-print http://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-1/type...
  - kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
    Those studies focused on geometric sans serif fonts like Helvetica. Humanist sans fonts have been demonstrated to have higher legibility in print.

gjm11 11y ago

If the creator is reading this: Your web pages would be immediately improved 100% by adding a link to a PDF file generated using this style, showing most of what goes into a typical thesis. (You could use your own thesis for which it was developed, or just a pile of lorem ipsum.) I see that you have links to JPEGs of sample pages, but this would be much better. [EDITED to add: I am not suggesting that you remove the JPEGs. They don't do any harm.]

noqqe 11y ago
https://github.com/derric/cleanthesis/blob/master/thesis-example.pdf https://github.com/derric/cleanthesis/blob/master/thesis-exa...
- gjm11 11y ago
  Excellent!
- ska 11y ago
  Very strange for me to see an example thesis in latex without any mathematics in it!
haddr 11y ago
And a must-have is an example with: - pictures - tables - formulas When you can't find it in the sample PDF, you assume that adding them will be some sort of visual hell...
- jimmahoney 11y ago
  Yes. And code. Without a LaTex & PDF example that includes all the pieces, the text layout isn't particuluarly interesting.

stared 11y ago

For mine I used KOMA-Script Package (scrbook) http://www.dickimaw-books.com/latex/thesis/thesis-screen.pdf http://www.dickimaw-books.com/latex/thesis/thesis-screen.pdf (and for official documentation: http://www.ctex.org/documents/packages/nonstd/koma-script.pdf http://www.ctex.org/documents/packages/nonstd/koma-script.pd...).

cies 11y ago

A quick look on Github told me you are not using the memoir package for this. Could the author please elaborate why it is not using memoir?

bhaak 11y ago
Because he's using scrreprt from KOMAscript as base class.
- cies 11y ago
  Ah, thanks.

ccannon 11y ago

Stop wasting time coming up with elegant thesis formats and finish your thesis!

sdoering 11y ago
What on this site told you he did not already? And why your tone of voice, emanating from your comment?
- analog31 11y ago
  The only time anybody cares about the formatting of a thesis is when they are not finishing one. ;-)
- Maybenhabe 11y ago
  He was making a joke.

richerlariviere 11y ago

LaTeX rule them all when it's time to write a thesis. This template is nice. The code is simple so a beginner can start to play with at any moment. Keep working hard I love what you did.

bh13731 11y ago

Another excellent template... https://github.com/kks32/phd-thesis-template https://github.com/kks32/phd-thesis-template

baby 11y ago
no example?
- kxs 11y ago
  https://github.com/kks32/phd-thesis-template/blob/master/thesis.pdf https://github.com/kks32/phd-thesis-template/blob/master/the...

Ftuuky 11y ago

My university dictates the style of a thesis so no chance there but it looks good.

boothead 11y ago

Anyone got a similar resource for self publishing ebooks? I had some stuff hacked together with org-mode and some other bits a while ago, but would like to know of anything better.

ivan_ah 11y ago
You can look into softcover/polytexnic here: https://github.com/softcover/softcover https://github.com/softcover/softcover , I believe it had a decent .tex style for a book. Also very powerful pipeline for producing .epub/.mobi from .tex Another excellent style sheet to look into is the Tufre-style book: http://www.latextemplates.com/template/tufte-style-book http://www.latextemplates.com/template/tufte-style-book I'd also be happy to share some of the .tex header I use for my book---just some customizations on the vanilla book documentclass. It's fairly hacky stuff, but it works ;)
- boothead 11y ago
  Softcover looks awesome. Thanks!
akeck 11y ago
It's not LaTeX, but a historian recently posted on HN his work flow for using plaintext and Pandoc for writing papers [1]. I've been using markdown+pandoc [2] for a book of stories for my family. TeX/LateX exerts nearly absolute (albeit, gorgeous) control over layout, whereas e-book readers often provide the reader with many configurable layout options. Thus, e-book formats tend towards a content-with-minimal-layout-hints way of handling layout. I'm finding markdown plus pandoc a good fit for the latter. [1] http://wcm1.web.rice.edu/my-academic-book-in-plain-text.html http://wcm1.web.rice.edu/my-academic-book-in-plain-text.html [2] https://puppetlabs.com/blog/automated-ebook-generation-convert-markdown-epub-mobi-pandoc-kindlegen https://puppetlabs.com/blog/automated-ebook-generation-conve...
JupiterMoon 11y ago
google for pandoc...

coliveira 11y ago

In many universities the problem is that you need to produce a thesis according to the university specifications. A generic thesis document may help with this, but will unfortunately never solve the complete problem. Fortunately, however, most universities also have a local LaTeX guru, or you can just copy the style used by previous students.

snowballsteve 11y ago
Where I did mine, they required submissions in strict word formatting.
- reagency 11y ago
  What's going to happen whem Word is dead is 20 years and they have all these useless files?
  - tonyarkles 11y ago
    There's a very good chance that they'll end up being transformed into PDFs before being released, and will also end up in print.

zlalanne 11y ago

Anyone have a good template / project for homework assignments that typically have code snippets, graphs, images and formulas?

analog31 11y ago
If I were teaching right now, I would gladly accept iPython. It is what I now use for reports containing similar content, doing R&D in industry.

ajarmst 11y ago

Many institutions, including mine, require a very specific style. Many even provide templates. Irritatingly, mine only provided a Word template, so I had to spend a day or two creating a LaTeX style. (Procrastination bonus: I was "working on my thesis" without actually working on my thesis). The mere fact that the provided style uses color would disqualify it as a thesis in many institutions. Also, it's somewhat distasteful that the linked site uses significantly more words on how I can donate for this derivative work than it spends on convincing me to use it.

asQuirreL 11y ago
In fairness, the donation is not monetary. It is probably more aptly described as "Contribution".

currysausage 11y ago

http://cleanthesis.der-ric.de/img/ct_toc.jpg http://cleanthesis.der-ric.de/img/ct_toc.jpg Using 2 different sans-serif fonts in the same document (here: Helvetica and the TeX humanist) is usually frowned upon by typographers. One reason is that differences in size, style, color, etc. should always be noticable. Two sans-serif fonts will always look superficially similar; the eye has to get used to different letter forms when it expects the font to stay the same. Beyond that, I think the template is really beautiful. Thanks for sharing!

kanusterkund 11y ago

That's just thesis style infinity + 1, nothing special, a lot of wasted space due to huge numbers.

brianobush 11y ago
wasted space = more pages!

kanusterkund 11y ago

That's thesis style infinity out of infinity +1. Nothing special, weird fonts, lots of wasted space.

droffel 11y ago

"This text should contain all letters of the alphabet..." Except for Z and Q. Those don't count.