7 ms·

Would you be coerced to plea guilty knowing you were innocent?

by martin1975 11y ago

swombat 11y ago
Apparently that's very common in the US. Innocence is certainly no guarantee you'll win in the US criminal court system.
Sacho 11y ago
Absolutely. Litigation is ruinously expensive and prosecutors have an almost flawless conviction rate. When you're placed in such a shitty situation where you get the choice of ruining your life a little and ruining your life a lot(and possibly your family and friends' lives as they try to help you along), it's not as cut and dry as "would you plead guilty knowing you were innocent". People do this every day. It's why prosecutors pile charges on, and it works.
- true_religion 11y ago
  > prosecutors have an almost flawless conviction rate. This is because anytime there is an absolute chance they'll lose, they drop the case. And if the case is less than a 100% guaranteed slam dunk, they'll ask for a plea so it'll never go to trial. Prosecutors cherry pick their trials. It's not possible for every prosecutor everywhere to keep a 98%+ average trial conviction rate in a normal system.
  - Tomte 11y ago
    Sounds like sensible and desirable behaviour to me. You might even call it "normal". Edit: I'd really like to see how all the downvoters would like to defend their stance. It's obvious that prosecutorial misconduct is not happening when prosecutors abandon cases that are marginal, but when they are harassing people they don't have a chance of getting convicted.
    - ifdefdebug 11y ago
      Well I didn't downvote you, but: "Desirable behaviour" would be for a prosecutor to seek truth, not conviction. That's what I would call "normal". And guess what: there are countries in this world where prosecutors think like that: they are glad to drop charges as soon as they see someone's innocent.
      - Tomte 11y ago
        That's exactly what I've written. Unless you want to assume that the court is so broken, it will willy-nilly convict innocents. But then it doesn't matter much what the prosecutor does, then the justice system is utterly broken.
        jessaustin 11y ago
        You don't have to assume; paying attention would suffice. Racial disparities, emphasis on victimless crime, asset forfeiture, prison overcrowding, and oh, the fact that USA has a much higher incarceration rate than any comparable polity ever in the history of the human race.
        rayiner 11y ago
        A justice system is broken when people break the rules and subvert the intent of the system. But most of what you're pointing to is, instead, conscious policy choices. E.g. a society is generally entitled to criminalize activities it does not want people to engage in. That some other people may perceive the crimes as "victimless" is neither here nor there. I'd imagine that very few people convicted of drug crimes are not in fact guilty of those crimes, because the evidence in those cases is usually overwhelming (e.g. caught with physical product in hand). Similarly, the U.S. has had about 5-10x the murder rate of, say, the U.K., going back probably a century or more, long before the recent rise in incarceration rate. So the fact that the U.S. has a high incarceration rate does not by itself mean that innocent people are being put in prison.
        11y ago
  - jeffmould 11y ago
    That is 100% correct. Let me rewind a little bit in my own life. I probably could have fought my charges a little more, but the risk outweighed the reward. You go to trial and anything can happen. Was I 100% innocent, no. Was I 100% guilty, no. But because at the time I was arrested my co-defendant had disappeared (I believe he is still wanted but I have never followed up and the past is the past to me) the focus of the prosecutor at that moment in time was squarely on me. The prosecutors offered me a plea that was almost too good to turn down. Looking back, and after talking to a bunch of people, I probably should not have taken the plea, but you can't go through life second guessing your decisions. Knowing what I know now, IMO, the better your plea deal the less confident the prosecutor feels about the case. I was looking at a minimum 10 year sentence. I took a plea for one year supervised probation. I took the plea for several reasons. First, going to trial would have cost me at bare minimum $50,000-60,000 in attorney costs (contrary to popular belief your ability to obtain a public defender is based on your income, and assets you have access to, and I did not qualify). As it was I had already spent close to $12,000 on attorneys. The second reason I chose the plea over trial was that going to trial would have been a long, drawn out process where the result may or may not have gone in my favor. You are putting your life in the hands of a judge or jury. In the end my decision to take the plea boiled down to cost and knowing that within 1 year I would be done with everything and could move on with my life. If I had gone to trial, it would have cost a lot more and at the time I was finishing probation I would probably just be going to court. I took it as an easy way to lick my wounds, learn from my experience, and put my life back on track quickly. Funny side story of it all. When I first started discussing costs with my attorney I asked him what his thought was on total costs. He replied that there were two questions he had for me in determining cost. First, did I want him to play golf with both the judge and the prosecutor, or just the prosecutor. And, the second question was how many games of golf I wanted him to play with them. I laughed and told him as many as it takes. Looking back part of me thinks he may not have been joking. Our legal system is full of I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine scenarios.
    - knodi123 11y ago
      > First, did I want him to play golf with both the judge and the prosecutor, or just the prosecutor. And, the second question was how many games of golf I wanted him to play with them. Reminds me of the time I was learning to drive a stick shift in west texas. My dad was in the passenger seat, and was giving me tons of grief for rolling through a stop sign while paying too much attention to the clutch. We stopped at a gas station, and a local cop pulled into the pump next to ours. My dad, to tease me, asked the cop how much a ticket for rolling through a stop sign would be. The cop said "About $100. But let me give you some advice. If you offer the officer the $100 right then and there, you'll save a lot of time and paperwork, and your insurance won't have to find out about it, which can save you more in the long run. It really pays to keep some extra cash in your car." My dad went poker-faced and said "Thank you for the advice", and then he drove us back home and said "Forget everything that man said.
Riseed 11y ago
If you're innocent, by the time you get to pleading, the system has already proven to you that it doesn't work. Even assuming no misbehavior (e.g. planted evidence), the police found you guilty enough to investigate, a judge found you guilty enough to arrest, and a prosecutor found you guilty enough to charge. Why would you gamble and dare think the trial in such a system would work any better?
hueving 11y ago
Yes, that's the whole issue. Many times people are offered deals that look better than the ridiculous sentences they will get if they happen to lose. If you don't have a strong alibi, it's tempting to take the deal.
gambiting 11y ago
There was an article on HN recently about a young man who spent nearly a year in jail, waiting for trial. Basically the prosecutor came to him,said "look, you can plead guilty, they will give you a 1 year sentence, take into account that you've been here for a year, you will be released and home within a week. Or, you can go to trial, which can go for months, and then you might end up with a 3-5 year long sentence". What would you do in this situation? Even if he was completely innocent, the temptation to go home right now, to end the nightmare, must be absolutely huge. I can only guess that there are thousands of people like this in US.
pessimizer 11y ago
I have been. The prosecutor knew I was innocent too, but didn't care. It was a choice between paying court costs and having a suspended sentence hanging above my head, or potentially getting 3 years in prison. As a black 19 year-old in a white court in Arkansas, the smart choice was obvious.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  That's totally disgusting.

Would you be coerced to plea guilty knowing you were innocent?

Apparently that's very common in the US. Innocence is certainly no guarantee you'll win in the US criminal court system.

Sacho 11y ago

Absolutely. Litigation is ruinously expensive and prosecutors have an almost flawless conviction rate. When you're placed in such a shitty situation where you get the choice of ruining your life a little and ruining your life a lot(and possibly your family and friends' lives as they try to help you along), it's not as cut and dry as "would you plead guilty knowing you were innocent". People do this every day. It's why prosecutors pile charges on, and it works.

true_religion 11y ago
> prosecutors have an almost flawless conviction rate. This is because anytime there is an absolute chance they'll lose, they drop the case. And if the case is less than a 100% guaranteed slam dunk, they'll ask for a plea so it'll never go to trial. Prosecutors cherry pick their trials. It's not possible for every prosecutor everywhere to keep a 98%+ average trial conviction rate in a normal system.
- Tomte 11y ago
  Sounds like sensible and desirable behaviour to me. You might even call it "normal". Edit: I'd really like to see how all the downvoters would like to defend their stance. It's obvious that prosecutorial misconduct is not happening when prosecutors abandon cases that are marginal, but when they are harassing people they don't have a chance of getting convicted.
  - ifdefdebug 11y ago
    Well I didn't downvote you, but: "Desirable behaviour" would be for a prosecutor to seek truth, not conviction. That's what I would call "normal". And guess what: there are countries in this world where prosecutors think like that: they are glad to drop charges as soon as they see someone's innocent.
    - Tomte 11y ago
      That's exactly what I've written. Unless you want to assume that the court is so broken, it will willy-nilly convict innocents. But then it doesn't matter much what the prosecutor does, then the justice system is utterly broken.
      - jessaustin 11y ago
        You don't have to assume; paying attention would suffice. Racial disparities, emphasis on victimless crime, asset forfeiture, prison overcrowding, and oh, the fact that USA has a much higher incarceration rate than any comparable polity ever in the history of the human race.
        rayiner 11y ago
        A justice system is broken when people break the rules and subvert the intent of the system. But most of what you're pointing to is, instead, conscious policy choices. E.g. a society is generally entitled to criminalize activities it does not want people to engage in. That some other people may perceive the crimes as "victimless" is neither here nor there. I'd imagine that very few people convicted of drug crimes are not in fact guilty of those crimes, because the evidence in those cases is usually overwhelming (e.g. caught with physical product in hand). Similarly, the U.S. has had about 5-10x the murder rate of, say, the U.K., going back probably a century or more, long before the recent rise in incarceration rate. So the fact that the U.S. has a high incarceration rate does not by itself mean that innocent people are being put in prison.
        11y ago
- jeffmould 11y ago
  That is 100% correct. Let me rewind a little bit in my own life. I probably could have fought my charges a little more, but the risk outweighed the reward. You go to trial and anything can happen. Was I 100% innocent, no. Was I 100% guilty, no. But because at the time I was arrested my co-defendant had disappeared (I believe he is still wanted but I have never followed up and the past is the past to me) the focus of the prosecutor at that moment in time was squarely on me. The prosecutors offered me a plea that was almost too good to turn down. Looking back, and after talking to a bunch of people, I probably should not have taken the plea, but you can't go through life second guessing your decisions. Knowing what I know now, IMO, the better your plea deal the less confident the prosecutor feels about the case. I was looking at a minimum 10 year sentence. I took a plea for one year supervised probation. I took the plea for several reasons. First, going to trial would have cost me at bare minimum $50,000-60,000 in attorney costs (contrary to popular belief your ability to obtain a public defender is based on your income, and assets you have access to, and I did not qualify). As it was I had already spent close to $12,000 on attorneys. The second reason I chose the plea over trial was that going to trial would have been a long, drawn out process where the result may or may not have gone in my favor. You are putting your life in the hands of a judge or jury. In the end my decision to take the plea boiled down to cost and knowing that within 1 year I would be done with everything and could move on with my life. If I had gone to trial, it would have cost a lot more and at the time I was finishing probation I would probably just be going to court. I took it as an easy way to lick my wounds, learn from my experience, and put my life back on track quickly. Funny side story of it all. When I first started discussing costs with my attorney I asked him what his thought was on total costs. He replied that there were two questions he had for me in determining cost. First, did I want him to play golf with both the judge and the prosecutor, or just the prosecutor. And, the second question was how many games of golf I wanted him to play with them. I laughed and told him as many as it takes. Looking back part of me thinks he may not have been joking. Our legal system is full of I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine scenarios.
  - knodi123 11y ago
    > First, did I want him to play golf with both the judge and the prosecutor, or just the prosecutor. And, the second question was how many games of golf I wanted him to play with them. Reminds me of the time I was learning to drive a stick shift in west texas. My dad was in the passenger seat, and was giving me tons of grief for rolling through a stop sign while paying too much attention to the clutch. We stopped at a gas station, and a local cop pulled into the pump next to ours. My dad, to tease me, asked the cop how much a ticket for rolling through a stop sign would be. The cop said "About $100. But let me give you some advice. If you offer the officer the $100 right then and there, you'll save a lot of time and paperwork, and your insurance won't have to find out about it, which can save you more in the long run. It really pays to keep some extra cash in your car." My dad went poker-faced and said "Thank you for the advice", and then he drove us back home and said "Forget everything that man said.

Riseed 11y ago

If you're innocent, by the time you get to pleading, the system has already proven to you that it doesn't work. Even assuming no misbehavior (e.g. planted evidence), the police found you guilty enough to investigate, a judge found you guilty enough to arrest, and a prosecutor found you guilty enough to charge. Why would you gamble and dare think the trial in such a system would work any better?

hueving 11y ago

Yes, that's the whole issue. Many times people are offered deals that look better than the ridiculous sentences they will get if they happen to lose. If you don't have a strong alibi, it's tempting to take the deal.

gambiting 11y ago

There was an article on HN recently about a young man who spent nearly a year in jail, waiting for trial. Basically the prosecutor came to him,said "look, you can plead guilty, they will give you a 1 year sentence, take into account that you've been here for a year, you will be released and home within a week. Or, you can go to trial, which can go for months, and then you might end up with a 3-5 year long sentence". What would you do in this situation? Even if he was completely innocent, the temptation to go home right now, to end the nightmare, must be absolutely huge. I can only guess that there are thousands of people like this in US.

pessimizer 11y ago

I have been. The prosecutor knew I was innocent too, but didn't care. It was a choice between paying court costs and having a suspended sentence hanging above my head, or potentially getting 3 years in prison. As a black 19 year-old in a white court in Arkansas, the smart choice was obvious.

jacquesm 11y ago
That's totally disgusting.