7 ms·

Are You Concerned Your 4 Year Old Isn’t in a Cool Band?

facepalm 11y ago
Sounds great, actually, if I was living in SF I would sign up my kids immediately.
zyxley 11y ago
The most important part here is probably that they give access to a room full of instruments, then will use anything that can contribute to a song, even if it's just two notes alternating on a beat... and get the kids into that before they know anything at all about playing music "properly". This seems like a great way to cultivate a life-long creative understanding of music - "if you can make interesting noise to a beat, that's music, and the rest is just details and practice".
gbog 11y ago
the opposite: I would be concerned if my 5 year old kid was pushed by someone to become a rock musician. On Earth we only need that many rock stars, and there is already an intense competition over the only few places available. I know many musicians that didn't get enough success and have hard time earning food money. I suspect that a kid whose fate is to become a musician will find a way to become one. This do not need to be encouraged even only a little. I find it more responsible to give kids the most "normal" (classic) education, while keeping doors open for later. It is easier to pivot from postman to writer (Bukowski) than from pretend rock star to bank teller.
- hedgew 11y ago
  On the other hand, sociometric status can significantly increase subjective well-being, and playing in a cool band is one of the most effective ways to gain status for kids and teenagers.
- toothbrush 11y ago
  Playing music isn't about becoming a rock star, a bit like a startup shouldn't be about becoming the next WhatsApp. Being able / confident enough to pick up a guitar and sing at a campfire is a very realistic and rewarding goal.
  - _yosefk 11y ago
    What's a realistic and rewarding goal for a startup then? :-) (Picking up a keyboard and writing some code at a campfire?.. might not go down all that well.)
    - hluska 11y ago
      Launch a product and get ten customers?
- hluska 11y ago
  Do you understand that this is an extra-curricular activity and not an actual primary school? If you understand that point and still balk at a program like this because it doesn't 'keep enough doors open' (???), I strongly encourage you to readjust this mindset before you have children. And, if you do have children, I am even more vehement that you need to change your tune. Small children deserve to use their imaginations and dream the wildest dreams imaginable. They deserve this not only because they are little kids and childhood is brutally short, but also because their brains are highly plastic and they are rapidly developing cognitive skills that adults take for granted. Children who are interested in the arts absolutely deserve encouragement because every single child on earth deserves to be encouraged. Children deserve to be encouraged to be the best versions of themselves that they can be.
  - gbog 11y ago
    I do encourage imagination, mostly by giving the example. But this means building weird things with Lego, it doesn't mean pushing babies on a stage with sunglasses and fake ovations by the parents. In our difficult times living a happy life most often means living far away from the media and the society of spectacle. Nothing bothers me more than the exhibitions of those little prodigy on t.v., it is rewarding for the parents only and steals away childhood from the kids.
    - eropple 11y ago
      I know people who have their kids in this program. It has nothing to do with prodigy culture or even really about the actual performative aspects in front of other people--it's about encouraging a love of music and feeling good about making something. That you're getting salty about it is, to be honest, kinda really weird.
      - gbog 11y ago
        I know it is not a very common way to think about parents responsibilities nowadays, but it was more so in the past. And I think it was reasonable to ask children to first pursue normal "un-sexy" education before getting more "creative", because in the end the kid will have to get a job, and choosing paths where jobs are not too competitive and pay the rent makes sense. A good friend of mine has his preteen daughter embarqued into writing a book, and this is ridiculous. Kids do not have to be creative, nobody has to be creative. Being creative is a gift (or a curse) that only a few have, and when it is strong enough to be a vocation, it will find its way, even against a classic (boring) education. Also, I hate the star system where a few crasy people are given as examples to the populace, while in fact they have most often a miserable life.
- DanBC 11y ago
  People have hobbies. Hobbies are probably important, especially if there's a social aspect to them. They're also fun. This doesn't seem to be pushy parents giving their five your old children pushup bras and entering them into pageants, or yelling insults from the bleachers.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Since when is music not part of a classical education?
- facepalm 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure that if you never expose kids to musical instruments, their likelihood of becoming rock stars is much lower. Classical education was created to produce worker drones for the industry. There is nothing in classical education that would help you become a rock star, except perhaps the pent up anger and frustration. There are also plenty of example of people who are famous in their job of having started really young. It's probably not the only way, but it helps - and in some areas it might be the only way. Finally, the point is not that the kids should become actual rock stars later on, but that they learn to lose inhibition, be creative, and have fun (at least that's what I would hope for when signing up my kids).
- soylentcola 11y ago
  As a counterpoint, people pay to send their kids to football camp even though we only need so many NFL stars or people pursuing that career. When I was a kid my folks paid for me to attend summer/day camp one year (some of the summer was day camp and some was overnight camp). We mostly just played outdoor sports and games, did arts and crafts, and more often than not, just sorta screwed around because we were kids and it was fun to screw around and play with stuff. I never pursued a career in any of the things I played with back then but I did learn to interact with other kids and participate in some fun activities. If anything, the part that sucked was that the activities were more things that we weren't always interested in. If I had the choice between dodge ball or learning to play basic rock drums, I'd have picked drums in a second. I think in the end, these camps and groups exist because people want their kids to be occupied and engaged. There are plenty of parents who have to work and don't have the skills or aptitudes to spend weeks playing soccer or music with their kids. If someone starts a summer camp or a rock band camp as a way to make a living while providing this service to people eager to pay for it, I can't see too much wrong with it. It's certainly a shame that not every kid has the opportunity to spend their free time having fun and trying out new activities but that's a whole other issue. In general, I think I'm a bit jealous that even as an adult I don't have the opportunity to have someone "coach" a group of other music enthusiasts past the pitfalls of trying to write and perform music.
mootothemax 11y ago
"They put the most distortion on the pink guitars, to subtly encourage the younger boys to break gender norms." I love it! Seems like a really well thought-out program, albeit - in my eyes - let down somewhat by an advert that implies it'll have much less depth than it actually has.
- nandemo 11y ago
  So the boys-like-distortion gender norm trumps the pink-is-for-girls gender norm?
  - mootothemax 11y ago
    So the boys-like-distortion gender norm trumps the pink-is-for-girls gender norm? No, that's not what I'm saying, nor what I believe the program is saying either. To my mind, everyone likes fun with distortion, and colouring the relevant guitars pink helps break down the "pink is for girls" gender norm, nothing more, nothing less. Actually, being perfectly honest, I'd never even heard of "boys like distortion" as a gender norm; is that a thing?
    - tdkl 11y ago
      > To my mind, everyone likes fun with distortion, and colouring the relevant guitars pink helps break down the "pink is for girls" gender norm, nothing more, nothing less. What if boys prefer different colors then pink ? Dat oppresion.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >I'd never even heard of "boys like distortion" as a gender norm; is that a thing? It obviously IS a thing. Check out the predominantly buyers of distortion pedals, or the near absolute majority of workshippers of "shredding" guitarists and heavy players. Also check any magazine about those kind of things, incudings any advertisments of heavy guitar gear, amps and distortion pedals. You will of course find 2-3 counter-examples. You'd be hard-pressed to find 10, much less 50.
onion2k 11y ago
You can’t just say “no” to an idea: it’s your responsibility to adapt it. There's a similar idea at Pixar - it's called 'plussing'. You accept someone else's point and use it as a starting point to build something amazing. There's a really worthwhile Randy Nelson talk about it on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhXJe8ANws8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhXJe8ANws8
golemotron 11y ago
I read this and thought: there should be some forum like reddit's NotTheOnion called NotPortlandia for this sort of thing. I went to reddit and discovered that there was. Shock.
xefer 11y ago
My wife and I brought my son to a rock band camp in the Boston area. My son loved it and maybe helped encourage him to still be an amateur musician all these years later. At the same time it felt very weird to be seeing rock-n'-roll packaged, codified and commodified the way it was. At pick-up time you see a bunch of youngsters mirroring the clothes and attitude of rock culture - while being loaded into their parents' minivans. I couldn't help feeling a bit uneasy about the whole thing to be honest. Back In My Day™ rock was a much more organically rebellious activity.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  "Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform - don't kid yourself." - Frank Zappa.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  True enough - rock and pop have become completely stylised and self-referential, like a sweatier and louder version of Japanese Noh theatre (or something.) That's not a reason for kids not to play at it. And the story telling part of this idea sounds great. Ironically, it's probably more creative than the rock and pop industries are now.

Sounds great, actually, if I was living in SF I would sign up my kids immediately.

The most important part here is probably that they give access to a room full of instruments, then will use anything that can contribute to a song, even if it's just two notes alternating on a beat... and get the kids into that before they know anything at all about playing music "properly". This seems like a great way to cultivate a life-long creative understanding of music - "if you can make interesting noise to a beat, that's music, and the rest is just details and practice".

gbog 11y ago

the opposite: I would be concerned if my 5 year old kid was pushed by someone to become a rock musician. On Earth we only need that many rock stars, and there is already an intense competition over the only few places available. I know many musicians that didn't get enough success and have hard time earning food money. I suspect that a kid whose fate is to become a musician will find a way to become one. This do not need to be encouraged even only a little. I find it more responsible to give kids the most "normal" (classic) education, while keeping doors open for later. It is easier to pivot from postman to writer (Bukowski) than from pretend rock star to bank teller.

hedgew 11y ago
On the other hand, sociometric status can significantly increase subjective well-being, and playing in a cool band is one of the most effective ways to gain status for kids and teenagers.
toothbrush 11y ago
Playing music isn't about becoming a rock star, a bit like a startup shouldn't be about becoming the next WhatsApp. Being able / confident enough to pick up a guitar and sing at a campfire is a very realistic and rewarding goal.
- _yosefk 11y ago
  What's a realistic and rewarding goal for a startup then? :-) (Picking up a keyboard and writing some code at a campfire?.. might not go down all that well.)
  - hluska 11y ago
    Launch a product and get ten customers?
hluska 11y ago
Do you understand that this is an extra-curricular activity and not an actual primary school? If you understand that point and still balk at a program like this because it doesn't 'keep enough doors open' (???), I strongly encourage you to readjust this mindset before you have children. And, if you do have children, I am even more vehement that you need to change your tune. Small children deserve to use their imaginations and dream the wildest dreams imaginable. They deserve this not only because they are little kids and childhood is brutally short, but also because their brains are highly plastic and they are rapidly developing cognitive skills that adults take for granted. Children who are interested in the arts absolutely deserve encouragement because every single child on earth deserves to be encouraged. Children deserve to be encouraged to be the best versions of themselves that they can be.
- gbog 11y ago
  I do encourage imagination, mostly by giving the example. But this means building weird things with Lego, it doesn't mean pushing babies on a stage with sunglasses and fake ovations by the parents. In our difficult times living a happy life most often means living far away from the media and the society of spectacle. Nothing bothers me more than the exhibitions of those little prodigy on t.v., it is rewarding for the parents only and steals away childhood from the kids.
  - eropple 11y ago
    I know people who have their kids in this program. It has nothing to do with prodigy culture or even really about the actual performative aspects in front of other people--it's about encouraging a love of music and feeling good about making something. That you're getting salty about it is, to be honest, kinda really weird.
    - gbog 11y ago
      I know it is not a very common way to think about parents responsibilities nowadays, but it was more so in the past. And I think it was reasonable to ask children to first pursue normal "un-sexy" education before getting more "creative", because in the end the kid will have to get a job, and choosing paths where jobs are not too competitive and pay the rent makes sense. A good friend of mine has his preteen daughter embarqued into writing a book, and this is ridiculous. Kids do not have to be creative, nobody has to be creative. Being creative is a gift (or a curse) that only a few have, and when it is strong enough to be a vocation, it will find its way, even against a classic (boring) education. Also, I hate the star system where a few crasy people are given as examples to the populace, while in fact they have most often a miserable life.
DanBC 11y ago
People have hobbies. Hobbies are probably important, especially if there's a social aspect to them. They're also fun. This doesn't seem to be pushy parents giving their five your old children pushup bras and entering them into pageants, or yelling insults from the bleachers.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
Since when is music not part of a classical education?
facepalm 11y ago
I'm pretty sure that if you never expose kids to musical instruments, their likelihood of becoming rock stars is much lower. Classical education was created to produce worker drones for the industry. There is nothing in classical education that would help you become a rock star, except perhaps the pent up anger and frustration. There are also plenty of example of people who are famous in their job of having started really young. It's probably not the only way, but it helps - and in some areas it might be the only way. Finally, the point is not that the kids should become actual rock stars later on, but that they learn to lose inhibition, be creative, and have fun (at least that's what I would hope for when signing up my kids).
soylentcola 11y ago
As a counterpoint, people pay to send their kids to football camp even though we only need so many NFL stars or people pursuing that career. When I was a kid my folks paid for me to attend summer/day camp one year (some of the summer was day camp and some was overnight camp). We mostly just played outdoor sports and games, did arts and crafts, and more often than not, just sorta screwed around because we were kids and it was fun to screw around and play with stuff. I never pursued a career in any of the things I played with back then but I did learn to interact with other kids and participate in some fun activities. If anything, the part that sucked was that the activities were more things that we weren't always interested in. If I had the choice between dodge ball or learning to play basic rock drums, I'd have picked drums in a second. I think in the end, these camps and groups exist because people want their kids to be occupied and engaged. There are plenty of parents who have to work and don't have the skills or aptitudes to spend weeks playing soccer or music with their kids. If someone starts a summer camp or a rock band camp as a way to make a living while providing this service to people eager to pay for it, I can't see too much wrong with it. It's certainly a shame that not every kid has the opportunity to spend their free time having fun and trying out new activities but that's a whole other issue. In general, I think I'm a bit jealous that even as an adult I don't have the opportunity to have someone "coach" a group of other music enthusiasts past the pitfalls of trying to write and perform music.

mootothemax 11y ago

"They put the most distortion on the pink guitars, to subtly encourage the younger boys to break gender norms." I love it! Seems like a really well thought-out program, albeit - in my eyes - let down somewhat by an advert that implies it'll have much less depth than it actually has.

nandemo 11y ago
So the boys-like-distortion gender norm trumps the pink-is-for-girls gender norm?
- mootothemax 11y ago
  So the boys-like-distortion gender norm trumps the pink-is-for-girls gender norm? No, that's not what I'm saying, nor what I believe the program is saying either. To my mind, everyone likes fun with distortion, and colouring the relevant guitars pink helps break down the "pink is for girls" gender norm, nothing more, nothing less. Actually, being perfectly honest, I'd never even heard of "boys like distortion" as a gender norm; is that a thing?
  - tdkl 11y ago
    > To my mind, everyone likes fun with distortion, and colouring the relevant guitars pink helps break down the "pink is for girls" gender norm, nothing more, nothing less. What if boys prefer different colors then pink ? Dat oppresion.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >I'd never even heard of "boys like distortion" as a gender norm; is that a thing? It obviously IS a thing. Check out the predominantly buyers of distortion pedals, or the near absolute majority of workshippers of "shredding" guitarists and heavy players. Also check any magazine about those kind of things, incudings any advertisments of heavy guitar gear, amps and distortion pedals. You will of course find 2-3 counter-examples. You'd be hard-pressed to find 10, much less 50.

onion2k 11y ago

You can’t just say “no” to an idea: it’s your responsibility to adapt it. There's a similar idea at Pixar - it's called 'plussing'. You accept someone else's point and use it as a starting point to build something amazing. There's a really worthwhile Randy Nelson talk about it on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhXJe8ANws8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhXJe8ANws8

golemotron 11y ago

I read this and thought: there should be some forum like reddit's NotTheOnion called NotPortlandia for this sort of thing. I went to reddit and discovered that there was. Shock.

xefer 11y ago

My wife and I brought my son to a rock band camp in the Boston area. My son loved it and maybe helped encourage him to still be an amateur musician all these years later. At the same time it felt very weird to be seeing rock-n'-roll packaged, codified and commodified the way it was. At pick-up time you see a bunch of youngsters mirroring the clothes and attitude of rock culture - while being loaded into their parents' minivans. I couldn't help feeling a bit uneasy about the whole thing to be honest. Back In My Day™ rock was a much more organically rebellious activity.

ArkyBeagle 11y ago
"Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform - don't kid yourself." - Frank Zappa.
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
True enough - rock and pop have become completely stylised and self-referential, like a sweatier and louder version of Japanese Noh theatre (or something.) That's not a reason for kids not to play at it. And the story telling part of this idea sounds great. Ironically, it's probably more creative than the rock and pop industries are now.