2 ms·
Justice Holmes later back-pedaled quite a bit on the fire/theater thing, and the simple quip just is not an accurate statement about how Free Speech works in Am
by CWuestefeld 11y ago
Justice Holmes later back-pedaled quite a bit on the fire/theater thing, and the simple quip just is not an accurate statement about how Free Speech works in America.
From another Popehat post (Ken's really serious about this stuff, and goes to great lengths to explain it), talking about Holmes's evolved jurisprudence years after making the fire/theater statement. Quoting:
Holmes' Repentance — Too Little, Too Late
Conventional wisdom says that Holmes rethought his broad support of censorship when he grasped how open-ended it truly was. The next trilogy of cases before the Supreme Court, starting in late 1919, is consistent with that view. Holmes dissented repeatedly as the Supreme Court reaped what he had sown. ...
Holmes, a regretful Dr. Frankenstein struggling against his creation [that is, the fire/theater comment], dissented. He first offered what in my opinion is a disingenuous and utterly unconvincing attempt to distinguish the case from Schenck, abruptly discovering fastidiousness about proof that expression actually has a tendency to cause lawbreaking ...
The damage Holmes inflicted — the malleable and unprincipled standard of censorship he drafted — was not thoroughly rebuffed until a half-century later. Brandenburg v. Ohio states the modern standard
http://popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-are-enough/ http://popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackney...
- Aqueous 11y agoGreat - you are really fixating on my outdated understanding of that particular statement, in lieu of actually addressing the substance of the argument which is that some speech is not legal. Specifically this kind of speech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action The decision in this case was eventually narrowed to just any speech that incites immediate lawbreaking - which the 'fire statement' did not do. In which case what we're taking about here still applies because we are examining a case where it was suspected by some well-placed individuals that individuals were inciting each other to imminent lawless action. Whether they actually did or not is clearly disputed, but let's at least focus on the substance of this issue instead of going after a red herring.