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Actually it's more like a small subset of Group A intends to kill us all (highly doubtful that they actually have the capability to actually kill us all). Grou

Actually it's more like a small subset of Group A intends to kill us all (highly doubtful that they actually have the capability to actually kill us all). Group B is using the undeniable fact that some factions of Group A intend us harm to claim that all of Group A is responsible for all the the worlds evils. (The deleted post claimed that Islam was responsible for all the human trafficking in the world for example). Some members of Group B (the despicable Britain First in the UK) have some completely bonkers beliefs that credulous idiots like the op retransmit without apparently giving them a nano seconds critical thought - e.g. "TEH MUSLAMISTS WANT TO MAKE ARE WATER HALAL" or "TEH AVERAGE MUSLAMIC WOMAN HAS XX CHILDREN - THERE TRYING TO BREED US OUT" (spelling mistakes intentional). So therefore, while I don't disagree the Islam has some serious problems as a religion and an ideology, I reject as bigotry and narrow minded hatred the message that the OP originally posted.

alphapapa 11y ago
First, whenever I see someone intentionally all-capsing and misspelling with "TEH THIS" and "TEH THAT", to me it reeks of childish ridicule. That does not lend the parody any credibility. Satire is one thing, but meme-trolling is another. I don't think anyone is claiming that Group A actually can kill everyone they oppose. The problem is that they want to, and that they are trying to, and that before all is said and done, they will have done so to many innocent people. Also, you are guilty of what you accuse Group B of being guilty of. I don't see anyone in Group B claiming that all of Group A is responsible for "all of the world's evils." If the OP made that claim, then I don't consider him part of Group B. Put him in his own, grossly exaggerating group. No, the Group B I'm talking about is the one simply pointing out the explicit goals and actions of Group A, and its association with a certain religion. The Group B I'm talking about does not claim that all members of that religion are members of Group A. All this "group this" and "group that" is getting a bit tiresome, but on the other hand, I think it's very important to speak precisely when dealing with issues like this. Once you begin lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping, meaningful communication breaks down, and fighting starts. And fighting is the problem we're trying to solve here. I'm not familiar with Britain First, so I don't know why you call them despicable. But I have read about Muslim gangs which have been getting away with child sex slavery in UK cities since at least 1988. This is documented in major UK and international newspapers. I wish you would also call out those groups as despicable. Note: I didn't say that all Muslims are despicable. Anyone doing those things to children is despicable, regardless of their religion. I don't know what the OP said, since it's hidden. But I would caution you against playing the "bigotry", "narrow-minded", and "hatred" cards. They are too easily used by one side to silence discussion of apparently unpopular opinions. There are bigots on both sides of the issue, but not everyone on one side of it is.
- boothead 11y ago
  You're right, my meme-trolling was a bit childish. However I have read some of Britain First's facebook pages and the comments there are hateful, vitriolic and most of the time barely literate. I actually agree with most of what you said here. I believe that Islam does have some serious structural problems, along with many other religions. Muslim friends say that indeed the Quran is pretty transparently calling for non-muslim's death, and it seems to be seized upon readily as the raison d'être for many of these terrible groups. As for the asian sex grooming, this is exactly this kind of thing that far right groups jump on. Suddenly it's muslim grooming gangs vs a group of men abusing children. Don't forget that within the Catholic church there has also been widespread abuse that's been covered up by the church. Somehow there isn't a pervasive implication that being Catholic means that you're more likely to be a child abuser. In case there was any doubt, yes grooming children for sex slavery is more despicable than whipping up hatred for an entire religion based on said abuse. I believe the way to counter "lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping" or othering is precisely to point out the flaws in logic and call it bigotry and hatred when you see it.
  - alphapapa 11y ago
    Ok, thanks for explaining that. I briefly glanced at Britain First's own web site (not their Facebook page), and while "nationalism" sounds a bit dangerous to me, the specific policies they advocate don't sound evil to me. On the contrary, they advocate things like a bill of rights to protect people, and enforcing existing laws. No doubt, people who agree with some of their goals, but for different, more hateful reasons, will coalesce around them and post comments on Facebook. I'm still not making any claims about the organization one way or the other, but my point is just that, if your opinion of them is based upon comments posted by individuals on their Facebook group page, that doesn't seem fair. It's good that there are some Muslims who are admitting that their scriptures are advocating these evil actions. I hope that they are being sincere and seeking the truth. But their scriptures also advocate deceiving opponents for the sake of advancing the cause. This is not a popular thing to talk about, because it sounds like calling all Muslims liars--which I am not doing. But it's a simple fact that the command exists. And this needs to be dealt with just as much as the other commands in it. Yes, the Catholic church has perpetrated much evil over its history. I don't defend it at all. However, it's still important to distinguish between what some Catholic clergy have done, what an average Catholic would do, and what the Catholic scriptures call for and condemn. That child abuse that some Catholic clergy have committed is condemned in their own texts. So to compare the Catholic church's abuses (especially its recent ones) and recent jihadist terrorist acts is a serious case of apples-and-oranges. It's misleading. > I believe the way to counter "lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping" or othering is precisely to point out the flaws in logic and call it bigotry and hatred when you see it. I think you have to be very careful when trying to mix claims of logical analysis with accusations of bigotry and hatred. Maybe it's like setting off sparks around flammable liquids: doing it in a controlled environment like an engine can result in useful work; but doing it carelessly results in explosions and harm. It's just too easy to call one side ugly names instead of calmly refuting arguments. And once one person does it, other people pile on, and before you know it, one side is being drowned out by baseless accusations and childish name-calling. Besides that, it assumes that one side knows what is in the other's heart and mind, what their motivation and unstated goals are. I think, if you look throughout history, most of the evil and violence and war and death comes, not from being logical, but from causing bigotry and hatred by being bigoted and hateful, by calling others ugly names, accusing them of being innately evil, and accusing them of thinking and desiring things which they do not. And unfortunately, the anonymity provided by the Internet allows such behavior to flourish in pockets here and there. It takes more effort to call for calm and reason and thoughtfulness than it does to drown it out with name-calling and mob-stirring. Well, anyway, thanks for being reasonable and actually discussing, rather than calling for censorship and downvoting, like some here have done.

alphapapa 11y ago

First, whenever I see someone intentionally all-capsing and misspelling with "TEH THIS" and "TEH THAT", to me it reeks of childish ridicule. That does not lend the parody any credibility. Satire is one thing, but meme-trolling is another. I don't think anyone is claiming that Group A actually can kill everyone they oppose. The problem is that they want to, and that they are trying to, and that before all is said and done, they will have done so to many innocent people. Also, you are guilty of what you accuse Group B of being guilty of. I don't see anyone in Group B claiming that all of Group A is responsible for "all of the world's evils." If the OP made that claim, then I don't consider him part of Group B. Put him in his own, grossly exaggerating group. No, the Group B I'm talking about is the one simply pointing out the explicit goals and actions of Group A, and its association with a certain religion. The Group B I'm talking about does not claim that all members of that religion are members of Group A. All this "group this" and "group that" is getting a bit tiresome, but on the other hand, I think it's very important to speak precisely when dealing with issues like this. Once you begin lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping, meaningful communication breaks down, and fighting starts. And fighting is the problem we're trying to solve here. I'm not familiar with Britain First, so I don't know why you call them despicable. But I have read about Muslim gangs which have been getting away with child sex slavery in UK cities since at least 1988. This is documented in major UK and international newspapers. I wish you would also call out those groups as despicable. Note: I didn't say that all Muslims are despicable. Anyone doing those things to children is despicable, regardless of their religion. I don't know what the OP said, since it's hidden. But I would caution you against playing the "bigotry", "narrow-minded", and "hatred" cards. They are too easily used by one side to silence discussion of apparently unpopular opinions. There are bigots on both sides of the issue, but not everyone on one side of it is.

boothead 11y ago
You're right, my meme-trolling was a bit childish. However I have read some of Britain First's facebook pages and the comments there are hateful, vitriolic and most of the time barely literate. I actually agree with most of what you said here. I believe that Islam does have some serious structural problems, along with many other religions. Muslim friends say that indeed the Quran is pretty transparently calling for non-muslim's death, and it seems to be seized upon readily as the raison d'être for many of these terrible groups. As for the asian sex grooming, this is exactly this kind of thing that far right groups jump on. Suddenly it's muslim grooming gangs vs a group of men abusing children. Don't forget that within the Catholic church there has also been widespread abuse that's been covered up by the church. Somehow there isn't a pervasive implication that being Catholic means that you're more likely to be a child abuser. In case there was any doubt, yes grooming children for sex slavery is more despicable than whipping up hatred for an entire religion based on said abuse. I believe the way to counter "lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping" or othering is precisely to point out the flaws in logic and call it bigotry and hatred when you see it.
- alphapapa 11y ago
  Ok, thanks for explaining that. I briefly glanced at Britain First's own web site (not their Facebook page), and while "nationalism" sounds a bit dangerous to me, the specific policies they advocate don't sound evil to me. On the contrary, they advocate things like a bill of rights to protect people, and enforcing existing laws. No doubt, people who agree with some of their goals, but for different, more hateful reasons, will coalesce around them and post comments on Facebook. I'm still not making any claims about the organization one way or the other, but my point is just that, if your opinion of them is based upon comments posted by individuals on their Facebook group page, that doesn't seem fair. It's good that there are some Muslims who are admitting that their scriptures are advocating these evil actions. I hope that they are being sincere and seeking the truth. But their scriptures also advocate deceiving opponents for the sake of advancing the cause. This is not a popular thing to talk about, because it sounds like calling all Muslims liars--which I am not doing. But it's a simple fact that the command exists. And this needs to be dealt with just as much as the other commands in it. Yes, the Catholic church has perpetrated much evil over its history. I don't defend it at all. However, it's still important to distinguish between what some Catholic clergy have done, what an average Catholic would do, and what the Catholic scriptures call for and condemn. That child abuse that some Catholic clergy have committed is condemned in their own texts. So to compare the Catholic church's abuses (especially its recent ones) and recent jihadist terrorist acts is a serious case of apples-and-oranges. It's misleading. > I believe the way to counter "lumping people together, generalizing and stereotyping" or othering is precisely to point out the flaws in logic and call it bigotry and hatred when you see it. I think you have to be very careful when trying to mix claims of logical analysis with accusations of bigotry and hatred. Maybe it's like setting off sparks around flammable liquids: doing it in a controlled environment like an engine can result in useful work; but doing it carelessly results in explosions and harm. It's just too easy to call one side ugly names instead of calmly refuting arguments. And once one person does it, other people pile on, and before you know it, one side is being drowned out by baseless accusations and childish name-calling. Besides that, it assumes that one side knows what is in the other's heart and mind, what their motivation and unstated goals are. I think, if you look throughout history, most of the evil and violence and war and death comes, not from being logical, but from causing bigotry and hatred by being bigoted and hateful, by calling others ugly names, accusing them of being innately evil, and accusing them of thinking and desiring things which they do not. And unfortunately, the anonymity provided by the Internet allows such behavior to flourish in pockets here and there. It takes more effort to call for calm and reason and thoughtfulness than it does to drown it out with name-calling and mob-stirring. Well, anyway, thanks for being reasonable and actually discussing, rather than calling for censorship and downvoting, like some here have done.