9 ms·

And the sun sets

46 points by panza 11y ago

strangecasts 11y ago
I think their conclusion - that the advice they got just didn't fit for their games - is a little too neat, and leaves out a couple of factors that were absolutely in their control (pricing, for instance).
ChuckMcM 11y ago
I found this user comment fascinating: I am one such person. I am interested in Sunset and fully intent to play it, but have not yet purchased it, for the simple reason that there are many titles that I already own that I have yet to play; I am suffering from a massive backlog, and from what I can tell, this is the case for an overwhelming majority of RPS readers Here is a person who likes the genre, but they already own so much product that they don't have time to play a new game. What that says to me is that game publishers are doing themselves a huge disservice by charging so little for their games. If you could imagine a fine art store where everything was $0.99, you might have dozens of paintings in your collection that you don't have wall space to put them on. So rather than paying a lot of money for a game and valuing it such that it is played before the next one is purchases, people binge on a dozen different games which never satisfy and only a few are "worth it". It is a sad place for game developers (charge more but get few sales as people work through the crap) or charge less and get few sales because nobody knows which are good and which are crap.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Zikes 11y ago
  There's a Japanese word, tsundoku, which means "buying books and not reading them, letting them pile up unread". There is a growing need for an equivalent word for games, I think. I have hundreds of games in my Steam library, and I think I've only played around half of them. I only regret a few purchases, though. I enjoy having a large selection of options, and when I'm in the mood for something new I will browse through them and pick out something I haven't tried yet.
- pervycreeper 11y ago
  One person having a backlog doesn't mean that games themselves are overpriced. This isn't true of physical goods (like books), and certainly not true of digital goods, which are not limited in the same way on the production side.
  - ChuckMcM 11y ago
    The concept I was going for wasn't "overpriced" as it was "too much choice". I first experienced it when I reached a point where, when walking into the computer store to buy a replacement PC, I had enough funds to buy any computer in the store. Before that point buying a computer was easier, I took the amount of money I had, read reviews, and then bought the one that best met my needs and stayed in my budget. But without a budget, the number of choices is huge. And to some extent overwhelming. It lead to the worst laptop purchase I ever made (which was a Sony 8 lb monstrosity). When things cost "a lot" in ones mind, it makes us far more discriminating buyers. That was certainly true when Games were $60 a pop, but not true when they are $1 - $9 each.
    - Zikes 11y ago
      I find that to be an odd opinion. More competition tends to work out in the consumer's favor, doesn't it? I think what we're missing is curation. In the hardware world, there are companies like Alienware and Apple that whittle down those choices into fairly straightforward options (though for a hefty premium, usually). For gaming, Steam is working on a Curators[1] feature that seems to be an alright start, but still needs a lot of work. [1] http://store.steampowered.com/curators/ http://store.steampowered.com/curators/
      - ChuckMcM 11y ago
        Yes and no, more choices add cognitive load to the choice. So up to a point its a good thing, beyond that point it becomes a more difficult thing. In a generally commoditized market such as computer games or laptops, curation is a good helper, doesn't completely solve the problem though because there is the question of how much like the curator the buyer is (some movie critics for example will pan movies that I find enjoyable so I have to calibrate my opinions with the critic's opinions) Back in the day I got three different computer games magazines and could reliably buy the games that got high scores in all three, knowing I would get enough enjoyment out of them to feel they had good value. My Andriod and iOS game experience has been spotty at best.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
roel_v 11y ago
Indie game makes no money, news at 11. Also, paying PR and marketing people to market some niche 'art' game? WTF are these people thinking?
benihana 11y ago
I hate to be harsh. I read that whole piece and I'm on board. But despite that, and looking up the game [1] on Steam, I still have no freaking clue what the point of the game is. The description makes it seem like you're cleaning some guy's office. The trailer doesn't show any gameplay footage. The screenshots look like a poorly rendered interior decorating catalog. What are you supposed to do in this game that is fun? I'm sure there's something - I'm guessing it's one of those graphical adventure type games, but I have no idea. And if I have no idea what kind of game this is, I'm not going to drop 10 bucks on it. And I can't tell from any of the normal channels companies what this game is about, other than being artistic. 1) http://store.steampowered.com/app/287600/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/287600/
- david-given 11y ago
  Emily Short (of interactive fiction fame) did a really good review of it a few days ago: https://emshort.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/sunset-tale-of-tales/ https://emshort.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/sunset-tale-of-tale...
- patzerhacker 11y ago
  This is what happens when you try to make art as games instead of games as art. Art doesn't have to be fun. Games do.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Udo 11y ago
After reading this, and having never heard of the game before, I checked it out and just spent 90 minutes playing it. It has some serious problems, and those are in my opinion the reason why it's not selling very well: The basic idea is great. This game has the kind of factors that make you want to like it: it's experimental, it hints at a great story, it's a period piece. However, the disappointments keep adding up as you interact with it. Sunset's graphics performance is abysmal on OS X. On a current, maxed-out iMac I had to keep lowering the settings throughout play and still wound up with intolerable choppiness. The game does look good, but not that good as to justify having these issues. In the beginning, it's fun to play. You discover the house, and the house keeps changing in interesting ways every time you visit. It's atmospheric. The music is as stark and beautifully depressing as the apartment. I enjoyed doing the chores, and took great care of what I did in the house. But it soon dawned on me that my actions don't really have any consequences. The "plot" keeps moving along, telling you of the results of your actions, whether you actually performed them or not (at least as far as I can tell, it's kinda difficult to say). The chores get old very fast, and you start to skip your work. Which doesn't seem to be of any consequence at all. The more you play, the more you get the feeling that you're moving on rails, pushing difficult-to-reach yet pointless buttons in the process. The monologue put forth by the protagonist isn't encouraging either. While at times poetic, it seems mostly banal and fake - which is astonishing considering the subject matter. Talking about banality, I played this on Steam, and you literally get achievements for zooming in on book titles and record labels, for no apparent reason. More than anything, it's a missed opportunity. Nobody involved in the process stopped and looked at basic factors like: the pacing, the graphics, the dialogue/monologue, or the user experience overall. The game feels like something you'd expect to be still in development. Although the game is most likely a labour of love, the jarring shortcomings in its implementation make it look like it's coasting along lazily on the merits of its premise without any intention of actually delivering on it.
- sageabilly 11y ago
  This is a really excellent point, doubly so when three of the bullet points in the article about what they did to sell Sunset had zero to do with improving the game itself (namely, hire a PR firm, take out a pricy internet ad, hire an image consultant). Advertising your game is great and all (although I seriously question if their PR/ad markets were well researched before their money was spent, because their ROR on those dollars was essentially nil) but you HAVE TO have a good game in the first place or else no one is going to want to play it. After reading the article it seems like they were more interested in going around saying "hey we made this game and we really really want you to pay us money and play it!" instead of making a kick-ass game in the first place.
stared 11y ago
They have made "The Path" (http://tale-of-tales.com/ThePath/ http://tale-of-tales.com/ThePath/), for me on favourite example of something on the edge of "a game"/"a non-game". And playing with convention of a game (you need to fail to "win") and a story (what is real, what is a metaphor?). I love the analysis on https://gamerdame.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/in-depth-analysis-for-the-path/ https://gamerdame.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/in-depth-analysis... (ALERT: heavy spoilers and an interpretation that can affect your perception).
- Zikes 11y ago
  I know them better as the developers for "The Endless Forest" (http://tale-of-tales.com/TheEndlessForest/ http://tale-of-tales.com/TheEndlessForest/) which made a bit of a splash a few years ago as something original and different.

46 points by panza 11y ago

I think their conclusion - that the advice they got just didn't fit for their games - is a little too neat, and leaves out a couple of factors that were absolutely in their control (pricing, for instance).

ChuckMcM 11y ago

I found this user comment fascinating: I am one such person. I am interested in Sunset and fully intent to play it, but have not yet purchased it, for the simple reason that there are many titles that I already own that I have yet to play; I am suffering from a massive backlog, and from what I can tell, this is the case for an overwhelming majority of RPS readers Here is a person who likes the genre, but they already own so much product that they don't have time to play a new game. What that says to me is that game publishers are doing themselves a huge disservice by charging so little for their games. If you could imagine a fine art store where everything was $0.99, you might have dozens of paintings in your collection that you don't have wall space to put them on. So rather than paying a lot of money for a game and valuing it such that it is played before the next one is purchases, people binge on a dozen different games which never satisfy and only a few are "worth it". It is a sad place for game developers (charge more but get few sales as people work through the crap) or charge less and get few sales because nobody knows which are good and which are crap.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Zikes 11y ago
There's a Japanese word, tsundoku, which means "buying books and not reading them, letting them pile up unread". There is a growing need for an equivalent word for games, I think. I have hundreds of games in my Steam library, and I think I've only played around half of them. I only regret a few purchases, though. I enjoy having a large selection of options, and when I'm in the mood for something new I will browse through them and pick out something I haven't tried yet.
pervycreeper 11y ago
One person having a backlog doesn't mean that games themselves are overpriced. This isn't true of physical goods (like books), and certainly not true of digital goods, which are not limited in the same way on the production side.
- ChuckMcM 11y ago
  The concept I was going for wasn't "overpriced" as it was "too much choice". I first experienced it when I reached a point where, when walking into the computer store to buy a replacement PC, I had enough funds to buy any computer in the store. Before that point buying a computer was easier, I took the amount of money I had, read reviews, and then bought the one that best met my needs and stayed in my budget. But without a budget, the number of choices is huge. And to some extent overwhelming. It lead to the worst laptop purchase I ever made (which was a Sony 8 lb monstrosity). When things cost "a lot" in ones mind, it makes us far more discriminating buyers. That was certainly true when Games were $60 a pop, but not true when they are $1 - $9 each.
  - Zikes 11y ago
    I find that to be an odd opinion. More competition tends to work out in the consumer's favor, doesn't it? I think what we're missing is curation. In the hardware world, there are companies like Alienware and Apple that whittle down those choices into fairly straightforward options (though for a hefty premium, usually). For gaming, Steam is working on a Curators[1] feature that seems to be an alright start, but still needs a lot of work. [1] http://store.steampowered.com/curators/ http://store.steampowered.com/curators/
    - ChuckMcM 11y ago
      Yes and no, more choices add cognitive load to the choice. So up to a point its a good thing, beyond that point it becomes a more difficult thing. In a generally commoditized market such as computer games or laptops, curation is a good helper, doesn't completely solve the problem though because there is the question of how much like the curator the buyer is (some movie critics for example will pan movies that I find enjoyable so I have to calibrate my opinions with the critic's opinions) Back in the day I got three different computer games magazines and could reliably buy the games that got high scores in all three, knowing I would get enough enjoyment out of them to feel they had good value. My Andriod and iOS game experience has been spotty at best.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

roel_v 11y ago

Indie game makes no money, news at 11. Also, paying PR and marketing people to market some niche 'art' game? WTF are these people thinking?

benihana 11y ago

I hate to be harsh. I read that whole piece and I'm on board. But despite that, and looking up the game [1] on Steam, I still have no freaking clue what the point of the game is. The description makes it seem like you're cleaning some guy's office. The trailer doesn't show any gameplay footage. The screenshots look like a poorly rendered interior decorating catalog. What are you supposed to do in this game that is fun? I'm sure there's something - I'm guessing it's one of those graphical adventure type games, but I have no idea. And if I have no idea what kind of game this is, I'm not going to drop 10 bucks on it. And I can't tell from any of the normal channels companies what this game is about, other than being artistic. 1) http://store.steampowered.com/app/287600/ http://store.steampowered.com/app/287600/

david-given 11y ago
Emily Short (of interactive fiction fame) did a really good review of it a few days ago: https://emshort.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/sunset-tale-of-tales/ https://emshort.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/sunset-tale-of-tale...
patzerhacker 11y ago
This is what happens when you try to make art as games instead of games as art. Art doesn't have to be fun. Games do.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Udo 11y ago

After reading this, and having never heard of the game before, I checked it out and just spent 90 minutes playing it. It has some serious problems, and those are in my opinion the reason why it's not selling very well: The basic idea is great. This game has the kind of factors that make you want to like it: it's experimental, it hints at a great story, it's a period piece. However, the disappointments keep adding up as you interact with it. Sunset's graphics performance is abysmal on OS X. On a current, maxed-out iMac I had to keep lowering the settings throughout play and still wound up with intolerable choppiness. The game does look good, but not that good as to justify having these issues. In the beginning, it's fun to play. You discover the house, and the house keeps changing in interesting ways every time you visit. It's atmospheric. The music is as stark and beautifully depressing as the apartment. I enjoyed doing the chores, and took great care of what I did in the house. But it soon dawned on me that my actions don't really have any consequences. The "plot" keeps moving along, telling you of the results of your actions, whether you actually performed them or not (at least as far as I can tell, it's kinda difficult to say). The chores get old very fast, and you start to skip your work. Which doesn't seem to be of any consequence at all. The more you play, the more you get the feeling that you're moving on rails, pushing difficult-to-reach yet pointless buttons in the process. The monologue put forth by the protagonist isn't encouraging either. While at times poetic, it seems mostly banal and fake - which is astonishing considering the subject matter. Talking about banality, I played this on Steam, and you literally get achievements for zooming in on book titles and record labels, for no apparent reason. More than anything, it's a missed opportunity. Nobody involved in the process stopped and looked at basic factors like: the pacing, the graphics, the dialogue/monologue, or the user experience overall. The game feels like something you'd expect to be still in development. Although the game is most likely a labour of love, the jarring shortcomings in its implementation make it look like it's coasting along lazily on the merits of its premise without any intention of actually delivering on it.

sageabilly 11y ago
This is a really excellent point, doubly so when three of the bullet points in the article about what they did to sell Sunset had zero to do with improving the game itself (namely, hire a PR firm, take out a pricy internet ad, hire an image consultant). Advertising your game is great and all (although I seriously question if their PR/ad markets were well researched before their money was spent, because their ROR on those dollars was essentially nil) but you HAVE TO have a good game in the first place or else no one is going to want to play it. After reading the article it seems like they were more interested in going around saying "hey we made this game and we really really want you to pay us money and play it!" instead of making a kick-ass game in the first place.

stared 11y ago

They have made "The Path" (http://tale-of-tales.com/ThePath/ http://tale-of-tales.com/ThePath/), for me on favourite example of something on the edge of "a game"/"a non-game". And playing with convention of a game (you need to fail to "win") and a story (what is real, what is a metaphor?). I love the analysis on https://gamerdame.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/in-depth-analysis-for-the-path/ https://gamerdame.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/in-depth-analysis... (ALERT: heavy spoilers and an interpretation that can affect your perception).

Zikes 11y ago
I know them better as the developers for "The Endless Forest" (http://tale-of-tales.com/TheEndlessForest/ http://tale-of-tales.com/TheEndlessForest/) which made a bit of a splash a few years ago as something original and different.