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I don't believe The Spirit of 1914 [1] was about being uncaring or just blind optimism. It was euphoria that war had finally broken out, ending bitter domestic

by panarky 11y ago

I don't believe The Spirit of 1914 [1] was about being uncaring or just blind optimism. It was euphoria that war had finally broken out, ending bitter domestic struggles and endless, fruitless diplomacy. But in hindsight, as miserable as the pre-war time must have been, open war itself was far, far worse. It seems we may be at a similar place today, at least economically, if not geo-politically. People want this Greece shit to be over with, but will Europe really be better off without Greece? Or in hindsight, will we realize that pre-Grexit was nothing compared to post-Grexit? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_1914 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_1914

narrator 11y ago
I think WWI is a bad analogy. In WWI all sides were completely caught off guard by the destructive power of modern industry applied to warfare. WWI was a case of ignoring the looming technological disruption of international relations and politics caused by modern warfare. I think WWI is basically the most panic inducing analogy anyone can come up with. It's great propaganda, but not at all realistic. I think what's going on in Greece is that the new world financial order, where permanent vassal states are created that must obey and pay tribute to their banker overlords, is slowly unravelling. Not because of outright revolt, but because it's just so impossibly awkward to operate these farces in the context of nominally democratic states. The Greek people are proud and patriotic and they aren't going to believe that their country should be essentially denationalized over debt. What is a government's power if not the way it spends its tax money?
- Pyxl101 11y ago
  Greece borrowed a lot of money and spent more than they could afford for a long time, and now the loans are coming due and Greece can't pay. The countries who loaned them money have a right to be mad about that (they are taking a loss because of it) and demand that Greece take all reasonable measures to repay them. (Edit: And, apparently, the Greek government has likely been committing fraud by cooking its financial books, both to get into the Euro and afterward; see links elsewhere in this thread.) The organizations that Greece borrowed money from are not "banker overlords". Greece chose to take the loans, and they can choose to default on them if they wish (and accept the consequences, like a person would, including ruining their credit rating). This would likely ruin their import/export business and tank their economy even further (due to the difficulty of trading without loans), and is not something that anyone wants; but if Greece does not demonstrate a way to reign in their spending and repay money that was borrowed, it's what may happen. Greece can certainly do what it wants. Other countries are not going to stage a military invasion over a loan default. However, as I said, it will ruin their ability to trade. Would you trade with someone who doesn't keep their promises to pay their creditors? How would you feel about sending a ship to Greece with some goods they've promised to purchase from you upon arrival, when you know that the Greek government has decided to default on foreign loans? What if they refuse to pay you too? Moreover, tanking their credit score will tank their ability to borrow money, which will cause their internal banking system to seize, since credit is essential to the economy -- perhaps the company you're planning to sell the goods to wants to pay you, but can't because they can't get a loan either, or can't get their hands on the currency they owe you. Really, it's no good for anyone. Countries need to make good on their promises to trading partners.
  - cwyers 11y ago
    > The countries who loaned them money have a right to be mad about that The countries that loaned them the money we're talking about lent them that money after it was already clear that Greece could not afford those loans. The original loans that Greece could not service were paid off by loans extended by the ECB and others, and Greece was given some assistance in paying off these new loans in exchange for certain austerity measures. These countries absolutely do NOT have a right to be mad if the very austerity measures they insisted on are causing the Greek GDP to shrink and making it harder for Greece to service these debts. > The organizations that Greece borrowed money from are not "banker overlords". Greece chose to take the loans, and they can choose to default on them if they wish (and accept the consequences, like a person would, including ruining their credit rating). Well, no, they can't. Because, again, the last time Greece came close to defaulting on their loans, these are the people who banded together to bail them out. The entire point here is that Greek shares a common currency with the rest of the Eurozone, and a Greek default has impacts on the rest of the Euro-using countries they would rather avoid. So they are trying to come to an agreement that avoids a Greek default.

by panarky 11y ago

narrator 11y ago

I think WWI is a bad analogy. In WWI all sides were completely caught off guard by the destructive power of modern industry applied to warfare. WWI was a case of ignoring the looming technological disruption of international relations and politics caused by modern warfare. I think WWI is basically the most panic inducing analogy anyone can come up with. It's great propaganda, but not at all realistic. I think what's going on in Greece is that the new world financial order, where permanent vassal states are created that must obey and pay tribute to their banker overlords, is slowly unravelling. Not because of outright revolt, but because it's just so impossibly awkward to operate these farces in the context of nominally democratic states. The Greek people are proud and patriotic and they aren't going to believe that their country should be essentially denationalized over debt. What is a government's power if not the way it spends its tax money?

Pyxl101 11y ago
Greece borrowed a lot of money and spent more than they could afford for a long time, and now the loans are coming due and Greece can't pay. The countries who loaned them money have a right to be mad about that (they are taking a loss because of it) and demand that Greece take all reasonable measures to repay them. (Edit: And, apparently, the Greek government has likely been committing fraud by cooking its financial books, both to get into the Euro and afterward; see links elsewhere in this thread.) The organizations that Greece borrowed money from are not "banker overlords". Greece chose to take the loans, and they can choose to default on them if they wish (and accept the consequences, like a person would, including ruining their credit rating). This would likely ruin their import/export business and tank their economy even further (due to the difficulty of trading without loans), and is not something that anyone wants; but if Greece does not demonstrate a way to reign in their spending and repay money that was borrowed, it's what may happen. Greece can certainly do what it wants. Other countries are not going to stage a military invasion over a loan default. However, as I said, it will ruin their ability to trade. Would you trade with someone who doesn't keep their promises to pay their creditors? How would you feel about sending a ship to Greece with some goods they've promised to purchase from you upon arrival, when you know that the Greek government has decided to default on foreign loans? What if they refuse to pay you too? Moreover, tanking their credit score will tank their ability to borrow money, which will cause their internal banking system to seize, since credit is essential to the economy -- perhaps the company you're planning to sell the goods to wants to pay you, but can't because they can't get a loan either, or can't get their hands on the currency they owe you. Really, it's no good for anyone. Countries need to make good on their promises to trading partners.
- cwyers 11y ago
  > The countries who loaned them money have a right to be mad about that The countries that loaned them the money we're talking about lent them that money after it was already clear that Greece could not afford those loans. The original loans that Greece could not service were paid off by loans extended by the ECB and others, and Greece was given some assistance in paying off these new loans in exchange for certain austerity measures. These countries absolutely do NOT have a right to be mad if the very austerity measures they insisted on are causing the Greek GDP to shrink and making it harder for Greece to service these debts. > The organizations that Greece borrowed money from are not "banker overlords". Greece chose to take the loans, and they can choose to default on them if they wish (and accept the consequences, like a person would, including ruining their credit rating). Well, no, they can't. Because, again, the last time Greece came close to defaulting on their loans, these are the people who banded together to bail them out. The entire point here is that Greek shares a common currency with the rest of the Eurozone, and a Greek default has impacts on the rest of the Euro-using countries they would rather avoid. So they are trying to come to an agreement that avoids a Greek default.