7 ms·

Goldman Sachs limits interns to 17 hour workdays

27 points by z0a 11y ago

dang 11y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9739254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9739254
kevinpet 11y ago
Complete click bait. GS is telling interns "you can't be in the office between midnight and 7am". I assume they didn't previously have a policy. So what anyone would consider a strict improvement over the previous situation is criticized because it isn't enough of an improvement.
- jlarocco 11y ago
  The criticism is entirely valid. This is just a policy, so for now all they've done is announce it and write it down. They could have just as easily made up something more reasonable, like interns can't work more than 60 hours a week. 17 hours a day is up to 119 hours a week, which is clearly exploiting them. The fact that it's (apparently) an improvement is a little scary, and the banks should be embarrassed and called out on it.
  - kevinpet 11y ago
    Interns working only 60 hours a week is much harder to monitor. A policy that says they can't be in the office between midnight and 7am is simple to monitor. The press has implied or allowed readers to conclude that interns were previous working more than 17 hours a day, which is nice for the author because you don't need to support an implication and you can't be called out for being incorrect in something you never say.
- braythwayt 11y ago
  So what anyone would consider a strict improvement over the previous situation is criticized because it isn't enough of an improvement. Perhaps it isn’t enough of an improvement. Putting our best straw men into service, imagine if we had unrestricted child labour, and the government introduced a law saying that children under twelve could not work more than eight hours a day and were to be allowed Sundays and Holidays off. That would be a strict improvement over the hypothetical previous situation, and would still be unacceptable to most civilized persons.
- NeutronBoy 11y ago
  I totally agree. Apparently nobody has critical thinking skills anymore. "you can't be in the office between midnight and 7am" doesn't necessarily mean 17 hour days - it means no working between midnight and 7am. (this is not a comment on what actually happens in GS, I'm sure there are people that do. But it's ok when startup founders do it, right?)
MathsOX 11y ago
I'm a summer intern at Goldman in S&T. Days for interns are the same as for the MD (managing director) you're under. You try to get in just before they do and leave when they do. Generally this is 6AM-7PM for me. I don't step foot in the office after 7PM Friday and have zero reason to do so until Monday. On the IB side working 9AM-11PM, with many days working to 2-3AM, is absolutely the normal. As is working on each day of the weekend. However, these new hours are being enforced by HR heavily - to my understanding, there's no reason for them to apply to S&T - although I'm not sure it'll mitigate any stress. The issue with IB internships, like any internship, is that you have huge gaps of lull time between projects. However, when you do get projects they're generally time sensitive and need to be done regardless of how long it takes you. This is the life of IB analysts, that those doing the IB internship are lining up to try to get, because it all comes down to doing your two years and going to somewhere (supposedly) bigger and better.
- kzhahou 11y ago
  6am-7pm -- how many of those hours are productive? My own brain tends to melt and needs a break after a couple hours of solid work. I always assume when people (not you) brag about their 100-hour workweeks, that in fact a huge chunk of that includes hanging out with co-workers, lunch, some down time throughout the day, so on. So, what's your own day like? What's a GS intern do, anyway?
  - MathsOX 11y ago
    Well, for IB I can't comment much. I'd say there's a lot of downtime, playing with basic models, etc. In S&T it's quite different and depends if you're on a quant desk; relatively illiquid trading desk, like some kind of structured product where you'll get a few trades a day; or a more normal fixed income or commodities desk where you'll be making markets throughout the day constantly trading, analyzing, and monitoring the markets. On my desk - which falls under FI, although I won't say which area - it's quite liquid, client-focused, and fast-paced. 6am-7am - Making sure all your systems are launched, working, and then analyzing what your colleagues in London, Hong Kong, and Tokyo were up to while you were asleep. Often your book will be managed by those folks and so you'll want to know what/how they executed (assuming they didn't call you through the night to get your opinion, which does happen depending on the product you trade). 7am-5pm - You're constantly trading; analyzing your positions; looking at your risk; calling middle/back office to get things analyzed; on the phone with colleagues in London, Tokyo, etc.; perhaps stepping into the odd meeting, getting someone to watch your monitors; talking to your sales people, giving them ideas, feedback, what clients should like a certain thing at a certain level, etc. 5pm-7pm - Making sure back office completes your risk, analyzing and amalgamating your PnL for the day, chatting with other offices just as you did at the start of the day. 7pm-11pm - Perhaps you'll go home and go to bed early (9pm or so), or, depending on your area, you may go to dinner with clients or have some other social engagement until 10-11pm. --- Trading is incredibly diverse, but I think this largely captures the roll of a sell-side (Goldman) trader in most front-office trading rolls. Quant-traders, like you'd find at certain quant hedge funds, tend to be less common at sell-side shops. You'll usually have traders, who just trade, with maths, comp sci, etc. undergrads who work with the quants (who have PhDs in those fields and don't trade at all) to get the data, systems, etc. they want. As a result traders generally, well, spend their entire day trading. Even on quiet days you'll be glued to your screen waiting, reviewing, thinking about what to do next. Market making doesn't involve letting clients dictate where the market moves necessarily, it involves being a liquidity provider and risk mitigator, which is what I'd say traders on the sell-side largely are.
kazagistar 11y ago
Is it not intellectual work? Sleep deprivation really wrecks my ability to think clearly.

27 points by z0a 11y ago

dang 11y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9739254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9739254

Complete click bait. GS is telling interns "you can't be in the office between midnight and 7am". I assume they didn't previously have a policy. So what anyone would consider a strict improvement over the previous situation is criticized because it isn't enough of an improvement.

jlarocco 11y ago
The criticism is entirely valid. This is just a policy, so for now all they've done is announce it and write it down. They could have just as easily made up something more reasonable, like interns can't work more than 60 hours a week. 17 hours a day is up to 119 hours a week, which is clearly exploiting them. The fact that it's (apparently) an improvement is a little scary, and the banks should be embarrassed and called out on it.
- kevinpet 11y ago
  Interns working only 60 hours a week is much harder to monitor. A policy that says they can't be in the office between midnight and 7am is simple to monitor. The press has implied or allowed readers to conclude that interns were previous working more than 17 hours a day, which is nice for the author because you don't need to support an implication and you can't be called out for being incorrect in something you never say.
braythwayt 11y ago
So what anyone would consider a strict improvement over the previous situation is criticized because it isn't enough of an improvement. Perhaps it isn’t enough of an improvement. Putting our best straw men into service, imagine if we had unrestricted child labour, and the government introduced a law saying that children under twelve could not work more than eight hours a day and were to be allowed Sundays and Holidays off. That would be a strict improvement over the hypothetical previous situation, and would still be unacceptable to most civilized persons.
NeutronBoy 11y ago
I totally agree. Apparently nobody has critical thinking skills anymore. "you can't be in the office between midnight and 7am" doesn't necessarily mean 17 hour days - it means no working between midnight and 7am. (this is not a comment on what actually happens in GS, I'm sure there are people that do. But it's ok when startup founders do it, right?)

MathsOX 11y ago

I'm a summer intern at Goldman in S&T. Days for interns are the same as for the MD (managing director) you're under. You try to get in just before they do and leave when they do. Generally this is 6AM-7PM for me. I don't step foot in the office after 7PM Friday and have zero reason to do so until Monday. On the IB side working 9AM-11PM, with many days working to 2-3AM, is absolutely the normal. As is working on each day of the weekend. However, these new hours are being enforced by HR heavily - to my understanding, there's no reason for them to apply to S&T - although I'm not sure it'll mitigate any stress. The issue with IB internships, like any internship, is that you have huge gaps of lull time between projects. However, when you do get projects they're generally time sensitive and need to be done regardless of how long it takes you. This is the life of IB analysts, that those doing the IB internship are lining up to try to get, because it all comes down to doing your two years and going to somewhere (supposedly) bigger and better.

kzhahou 11y ago
6am-7pm -- how many of those hours are productive? My own brain tends to melt and needs a break after a couple hours of solid work. I always assume when people (not you) brag about their 100-hour workweeks, that in fact a huge chunk of that includes hanging out with co-workers, lunch, some down time throughout the day, so on. So, what's your own day like? What's a GS intern do, anyway?
- MathsOX 11y ago
  Well, for IB I can't comment much. I'd say there's a lot of downtime, playing with basic models, etc. In S&T it's quite different and depends if you're on a quant desk; relatively illiquid trading desk, like some kind of structured product where you'll get a few trades a day; or a more normal fixed income or commodities desk where you'll be making markets throughout the day constantly trading, analyzing, and monitoring the markets. On my desk - which falls under FI, although I won't say which area - it's quite liquid, client-focused, and fast-paced. 6am-7am - Making sure all your systems are launched, working, and then analyzing what your colleagues in London, Hong Kong, and Tokyo were up to while you were asleep. Often your book will be managed by those folks and so you'll want to know what/how they executed (assuming they didn't call you through the night to get your opinion, which does happen depending on the product you trade). 7am-5pm - You're constantly trading; analyzing your positions; looking at your risk; calling middle/back office to get things analyzed; on the phone with colleagues in London, Tokyo, etc.; perhaps stepping into the odd meeting, getting someone to watch your monitors; talking to your sales people, giving them ideas, feedback, what clients should like a certain thing at a certain level, etc. 5pm-7pm - Making sure back office completes your risk, analyzing and amalgamating your PnL for the day, chatting with other offices just as you did at the start of the day. 7pm-11pm - Perhaps you'll go home and go to bed early (9pm or so), or, depending on your area, you may go to dinner with clients or have some other social engagement until 10-11pm. --- Trading is incredibly diverse, but I think this largely captures the roll of a sell-side (Goldman) trader in most front-office trading rolls. Quant-traders, like you'd find at certain quant hedge funds, tend to be less common at sell-side shops. You'll usually have traders, who just trade, with maths, comp sci, etc. undergrads who work with the quants (who have PhDs in those fields and don't trade at all) to get the data, systems, etc. they want. As a result traders generally, well, spend their entire day trading. Even on quiet days you'll be glued to your screen waiting, reviewing, thinking about what to do next. Market making doesn't involve letting clients dictate where the market moves necessarily, it involves being a liquidity provider and risk mitigator, which is what I'd say traders on the sell-side largely are.

kazagistar 11y ago

Is it not intellectual work? Sleep deprivation really wrecks my ability to think clearly.