4 ms·

It's actually worse than that. Most states and the federal system impose periods of supervision after release - often lasting for years. During this time, the

It's actually worse than that. Most states and the federal system impose periods of supervision after release - often lasting for years. During this time, they aren't just expected to not break the law. They must find a job that their probation officer approves of, with an employer that is willing to give reports to the PO, and must disclose their conviction to all potential employers. They often cannot travel outside the county in which they reside, even for work. They cannot drink alcohol (even socially) in most cases. Their constitutional rights against illegal search and seizure are null and void, and must submit to searches any time and at any place they are. Those that were accused of financial crimes often are not allowed to possess checking accounts or credit/debit cards. They often must attend expensive classes & counseling sessions, and pay supervision fees, along with making any applicable restitution or payments on fines. These are just the basics that apply to everyone....there is an infinite list of conditions that can be imposed based upon the specific crime(s) they committed. If they violate any of these conditions, they are subject to immediate arrest and imprisonment, usually without any judicial review. This is one reason reincarceration rates are so high - it's incredibly easy for these people to be sent back to jail without even thinking of committing a new crime.

omegaham 11y ago
Yep. It's gotten bad enough that people will actually take a longer period of incarceration if it doesn't involve probation afterward. And good luck finding an employer who will hire a felon. Hell, good luck finding a landlord who will rent to you.
- leesalminen 11y ago
  It really is that bad. I would've gladly taken 90 days in county jail vs. years of probation for a first offense misdemeanor. On the flip side, my county's jail offers yoga and fresh fruit daily.
- nate_meurer 11y ago
  Landlord here. I won't rent to violent felons (murder, sexual assault, etc.) strictly as a liability issue. But I consider it an ethical and moral obligation to not discriminate against people convicted of crimes that don't reasonably make them a threat to the neighbors of my properties. I firmly believe that one of big drivers of recidivism is housing discrimination based on the mere presence of a criminal record. EDIT: cleaned up a bad sentence
  - leesalminen 11y ago
    Thank you for being a decent person.
    - nate_meurer 11y ago
      I really appreciate that, thanks
jeffmould 11y ago
You are 100% right. Parole and probation violations are a common misstep in our system, and account for an enormous amount of our prison population. I can speak from experience. I had a one-year probation sentence, on the very last day with only a few hours until my probation was set to expire (I even had a preliminary release letter from my probation officer with the date and time of expiration and had completed my final assessments), I was packing a moving truck preparing to move out of the state. I did not intend, nor was there any possible way I could have finished packing and had everything wrapped up in that time, to leave prior to my probation being expired. Instead an off-duty sheriff deputy who knew I was on probation just happened to see me packing decided he was going to stop and arrest me for on a violation for attempting to violate by moving. Although when I went before the judge 24 hours later he dropped it, the fact of the matter is that I was still violated, spent 24 hours in a holding cell waiting to see the judge, all because someone was a little overzealous in their job and had a zero-tolerance attitude. Now I see and hear the stories every day of individuals who are violated for the dumbest reasons (i.e. bus crash in front of probation office, witnessed by probation officer, individual taken to hospital, violated for missing probation appointment by same officer that witnessed the accident in the first place. Given a 90-day sentence for violating their probation. And those were the facts as provided by the officer, not the individual. The officer essentially was laughing at how much control they have over someone's life in these incidents.).
- hga 11y ago
  I call this the police-judicial complex; they have a "problem" in that between the end of the demographic Baby Boom and the partial reversion of the soft on crime '60s and '70s, there is much less real crime. Per the thesis of Arrest-Proof Yourself (http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-C-Carson/dp/1613748043 http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-C-Carson/dp...) that means in much of the country they'd have to downsize if they didn't "feed" upon a steady stream of what the authors refer to as "the clueless", most especially the sorts of people who can't realistically follow all their probation restrictions. Obviously much, much better than them suffering layoffs. And I'l criticize the media again with their "if it bleeds, it leads" bias, how many in the US realize crime is down so much from that old peak?
- 11y ago
leesalminen 11y ago
In Colorado, misdemeanor probation has been "privatized" and is managed by a for-profit entity (Intervention, Inc. & Rocky Mountain Offender Management Services [RMOMS]). I've been through their "system". I'm convinced it's a money making scheme. Their "case managers" (you don't even get a probation officer) are paid $12/hour and are implicitly instructed to find ways to charge you more money. I've had one lie to my face about a state statute (that I had memorized, word for word) to try to get me to pay them more money. A first-offense, low BAC DWAI in Colorado set me back >$20,000 over 2.5 years and 3 lawyers.
- nate_meurer 11y ago
  Holy shit. Do you mind saying more about that amount? Fines vs. lawyers fees, vs probationary costs?
  - leesalminen 11y ago
    Lawyer 1 Retainer: $4000 DMV License Revocation Hearing: $50 MADD Panel: $30 Court Fines: $2000 County Probation Intake Fee: $100 Private Probation Intake Fee: $100 Probation Supervision: $1000 Community Service Fees: $250 Urinalysis: $1000 Bus for urinalysis: $750 The single urinalysis during a trip to NYC: $300 Alcohol Education Classes (teacher ripped me off, had to repeat): $1500 Alcohol Education Classes Round 2: $1500 Lawyer #2 to Fight Class #1: $4000 Lawyer #3 to Fight Class #1: $2000 Alcohol Therapy: $2400 Probation Discharge Fee: $100 License Reinstatement Application: $95 Driving Permit Application: $50 Driver License Application: $50 Ignition Interlock Installation: $100 Ignition Interlock Lease: $2400 Job opportunity lost: VP of Engineering at mid size software startup. Required short notice international travel. Denied by probation. Would've been a 500% boost in salary for me. You are required to present a pay stub each month to your probation officer. You can not black out the payment amounts (I tried). In effect, these case managers know exactly how much money you make and what your expenses are (intake questionnaire). They knew I had a good amount of disposable income and used that to their advantage. The money isn't even the worst of it. A buddy of mine is currently on probation for the same charge (low BAC DWAI) in Colorado. He's 24 and has been diagnosed with 2 distinct cancers. Probation denied medical marijuana use but allows him to take prescribed opiates. Well, the prescriptions ran out and heroin is cheaper than Vicodin. Guess what? He buys heroin now and has the prescription on file to ignore the results of opiate metabolites in his urine. My girlfriend is also currently on probation for the same charge (low BAC DWAI). She's supposed to start University in September (Vet. Tech. program at a great school). The case managers are intentionally making it very difficult for her to be able to attend. She's seriously considering postponing her education for 24 months. That's the real crime. Do you see a pattern here? Mid 20-somethings being targeted. DWAI in Colorado = BAC 0.02 DUI per-se in Colorado = BAC 0.04 DUI in Colorado = BAC 0.08 Even 1 drink and they can arrest you. DWAI carries virtually the same penalties as a DUI ($500-$1000 difference in fine).

omegaham 11y ago

Yep. It's gotten bad enough that people will actually take a longer period of incarceration if it doesn't involve probation afterward. And good luck finding an employer who will hire a felon. Hell, good luck finding a landlord who will rent to you.

leesalminen 11y ago
It really is that bad. I would've gladly taken 90 days in county jail vs. years of probation for a first offense misdemeanor. On the flip side, my county's jail offers yoga and fresh fruit daily.
nate_meurer 11y ago
Landlord here. I won't rent to violent felons (murder, sexual assault, etc.) strictly as a liability issue. But I consider it an ethical and moral obligation to not discriminate against people convicted of crimes that don't reasonably make them a threat to the neighbors of my properties. I firmly believe that one of big drivers of recidivism is housing discrimination based on the mere presence of a criminal record. EDIT: cleaned up a bad sentence
- leesalminen 11y ago
  Thank you for being a decent person.
  - nate_meurer 11y ago
    I really appreciate that, thanks

jeffmould 11y ago

You are 100% right. Parole and probation violations are a common misstep in our system, and account for an enormous amount of our prison population. I can speak from experience. I had a one-year probation sentence, on the very last day with only a few hours until my probation was set to expire (I even had a preliminary release letter from my probation officer with the date and time of expiration and had completed my final assessments), I was packing a moving truck preparing to move out of the state. I did not intend, nor was there any possible way I could have finished packing and had everything wrapped up in that time, to leave prior to my probation being expired. Instead an off-duty sheriff deputy who knew I was on probation just happened to see me packing decided he was going to stop and arrest me for on a violation for attempting to violate by moving. Although when I went before the judge 24 hours later he dropped it, the fact of the matter is that I was still violated, spent 24 hours in a holding cell waiting to see the judge, all because someone was a little overzealous in their job and had a zero-tolerance attitude. Now I see and hear the stories every day of individuals who are violated for the dumbest reasons (i.e. bus crash in front of probation office, witnessed by probation officer, individual taken to hospital, violated for missing probation appointment by same officer that witnessed the accident in the first place. Given a 90-day sentence for violating their probation. And those were the facts as provided by the officer, not the individual. The officer essentially was laughing at how much control they have over someone's life in these incidents.).

hga 11y ago
I call this the police-judicial complex; they have a "problem" in that between the end of the demographic Baby Boom and the partial reversion of the soft on crime '60s and '70s, there is much less real crime. Per the thesis of Arrest-Proof Yourself (http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-C-Carson/dp/1613748043 http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-C-Carson/dp...) that means in much of the country they'd have to downsize if they didn't "feed" upon a steady stream of what the authors refer to as "the clueless", most especially the sorts of people who can't realistically follow all their probation restrictions. Obviously much, much better than them suffering layoffs. And I'l criticize the media again with their "if it bleeds, it leads" bias, how many in the US realize crime is down so much from that old peak?
11y ago

leesalminen 11y ago

In Colorado, misdemeanor probation has been "privatized" and is managed by a for-profit entity (Intervention, Inc. & Rocky Mountain Offender Management Services [RMOMS]). I've been through their "system". I'm convinced it's a money making scheme. Their "case managers" (you don't even get a probation officer) are paid $12/hour and are implicitly instructed to find ways to charge you more money. I've had one lie to my face about a state statute (that I had memorized, word for word) to try to get me to pay them more money. A first-offense, low BAC DWAI in Colorado set me back >$20,000 over 2.5 years and 3 lawyers.

nate_meurer 11y ago
Holy shit. Do you mind saying more about that amount? Fines vs. lawyers fees, vs probationary costs?
- leesalminen 11y ago
  Lawyer 1 Retainer: $4000 DMV License Revocation Hearing: $50 MADD Panel: $30 Court Fines: $2000 County Probation Intake Fee: $100 Private Probation Intake Fee: $100 Probation Supervision: $1000 Community Service Fees: $250 Urinalysis: $1000 Bus for urinalysis: $750 The single urinalysis during a trip to NYC: $300 Alcohol Education Classes (teacher ripped me off, had to repeat): $1500 Alcohol Education Classes Round 2: $1500 Lawyer #2 to Fight Class #1: $4000 Lawyer #3 to Fight Class #1: $2000 Alcohol Therapy: $2400 Probation Discharge Fee: $100 License Reinstatement Application: $95 Driving Permit Application: $50 Driver License Application: $50 Ignition Interlock Installation: $100 Ignition Interlock Lease: $2400 Job opportunity lost: VP of Engineering at mid size software startup. Required short notice international travel. Denied by probation. Would've been a 500% boost in salary for me. You are required to present a pay stub each month to your probation officer. You can not black out the payment amounts (I tried). In effect, these case managers know exactly how much money you make and what your expenses are (intake questionnaire). They knew I had a good amount of disposable income and used that to their advantage. The money isn't even the worst of it. A buddy of mine is currently on probation for the same charge (low BAC DWAI) in Colorado. He's 24 and has been diagnosed with 2 distinct cancers. Probation denied medical marijuana use but allows him to take prescribed opiates. Well, the prescriptions ran out and heroin is cheaper than Vicodin. Guess what? He buys heroin now and has the prescription on file to ignore the results of opiate metabolites in his urine. My girlfriend is also currently on probation for the same charge (low BAC DWAI). She's supposed to start University in September (Vet. Tech. program at a great school). The case managers are intentionally making it very difficult for her to be able to attend. She's seriously considering postponing her education for 24 months. That's the real crime. Do you see a pattern here? Mid 20-somethings being targeted. DWAI in Colorado = BAC 0.02 DUI per-se in Colorado = BAC 0.04 DUI in Colorado = BAC 0.08 Even 1 drink and they can arrest you. DWAI carries virtually the same penalties as a DUI ($500-$1000 difference in fine).