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In the State of California, the very highest-paying job that can is within reach of most people who do not have college degrees is to be a State prison guard.

In the State of California, the very highest-paying job that can is within reach of most people who do not have college degrees is to be a State prison guard. That can be unpleasant and dangerous work so I readily agree it should pay well however it has resulted in their union being one of the most-powerful political lobbies in the state. Dozens of new prisons have been built in the last few decades but only one new University of California campus. Several years ago a Federal judge ordered the state to reduce prison overcrowding. It hasn't made much progress.

philwelch 11y ago
Bingo. For-profit prisons exist, but they are a tiny minority. But even the state prisons come with a financial motive attached. And, because people are conditioned to see unions as good guys, this obvious lobbying bias is never checked.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Unions are in general a force for good for their members - the problem is there is no countervailing unions to oppose the interests of the prison guard union. If we had more union members in other industries then the interest of these other union members would act as a check on the power of the guards.
  - philwelch 11y ago
    The whole point of a union is to benefit its members contra the interests of their employer. The problem with public sector unions is that they benefit government employees contra the interests of the public.
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      Yes because the vast majority of the public is not in a union. If they were then their union would be fighting for their interest and prevent the public sector unions capturing all the benefits at their expense.
      - zo1 11y ago
        I find it ironic that you call for free-market principles (competition between unions) to be the mechanism by which union-power is kept in check.
        danieltillett 11y ago
        Why is this ironic? I am a not anti-free markets. If a solution exists for a problem that can be solved by the market then I am of the opinion that the market should solve it.
        icebraining 11y ago
        Nothing ironic about it. Unions, if not enforced on workers by laws, are perfectly valid market mechanisms. Like economists such as Zingales say, pro-market is not necessarily pro-business, and unions are a good way to gage what people actually support.
        MichaelCrawford 11y ago
        Kuro5hin's Orion Blastar is completely convinced that I am anti-business, despite that I own two different corporations and get all my consulting gigs from businesses. However it is hard for me to find work at all because I will not work for companies that I regard as unethical. Orion claims this implies that I regard ALL companies as unethical, but no, only certain specific ones.
    - JupiterMoon 11y ago
      And yet in some countries the union is able to work together with the employer so that everyone wins. (By wins I mean the employer makes money and stays in business and the employees earn a living wage.) This of course requires mature sensible people who see beyond the next financial quarter or the next paycheck.
      - philwelch 11y ago
        For private sector unions this is true, because employers have a vested interest in the success (or at least survival) of their employer. In the public sector, prison guards don't have a vested interest in reducing the prison population (quite the opposite), police officers don't have a vested interest in keeping themselves accountable for use of force (quite the opposite), and so forth.
    - MichaelCrawford 11y ago
      I know many union members who work very hard to promote the interests of their employers. My father and grandfather were union carpenters. They took pride in doing a good job.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      The nurses' union are one of the only few political forces opposing the TPP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUKlBejOlTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUKlBejOlTU That's in the public interest.
- jeffmould 11y ago
  Actually about 15% of all state/federal prisons are owned or managed by for-profit corporations. There are really two classifications of "for-profit" prisons. One is where the company owns/operates the entire facility. These are the ones that receive the most attention even though they are the minority comparatively. The big for-profit companies usually try to buy first before moving to option 2. The second option is where the state/county builds a prison or jail, owns the facility, possibly supplements some staffing, but contracts out the day-to-day operations to a for-profit company. This is what is more common as many states won't sell the actual facility and/or land. They just want someone to takeover the day-to-day operations so they don't have to worry about it. Both are just as bad and both have occupancy based contracts.
  - MichaelCrawford 11y ago
    The incompetent medical and mental health care in the Clark County Jail in Vancouver, Washington is largely due to a contractor trying to save a few pennies by ordering prescription drugs from a pharmacy in Maryland. This has the result that lots of mentally ill inmates - including myself - land in Western State Hospital at a cost to the taxpayer of $550.00 per day. I've been taking psychiatric medicine since 1985; the very most I have ever paid for my happy pills was $1000.00 per month. Because the contractor wants to save perhaps ten dollars per month, every mentally ill inmate goes cold turkey on their medicine when they are detained. Every prescriber I have ever met adamantly urged me never to stop my medicine suddenly. There are all kinds of ways that could lead to death but in my particular case I find myself in a very expensive nuthouse rather than an inexpensive slammer.
bontoJR 11y ago
> In the State of California, the very highest-paying job that can is within reach of most people who do not have college degrees is to be a State prison guard. This is very interesting, this means there's a big business behind it. I don't know which are the requirements to be hired as prison guard, for sure is, as you said, an unpleasant and dangerous work, but I don't get why a prison guard should be paid higher than a cop, that is always facing criminals, but in more dangerous situations. > Several years ago a Federal judge ordered the state to reduce prison overcrowding. It hasn't made much progress. This would definitely cost a lot, prison overcrowding, in some countries, is a big issue. There's no real solution other than build new prisons, hire new people and transfer prisoners. I read in the past an article stating that the future of prisons will be mostly private, turned into a real business. I honestly laughed in a first instance, then reading a lot about the topic, I figured out that maybe that article wasn't so much wrong after all...
- praptak 11y ago
  "There's no real solution other than build new prisons, hire new people and transfer prisoners." Changing idiotic laws that land harmless people in jail would help a lot.
- wisty 11y ago
  > I don't get why a prison guard should be paid higher than a cop A quick web search shows cops making $100k, while guards make $70k. I'd imagine the police are more selective though. It might not be "within reach" of a lot of people (low turnover, and higher requirements).
  - MichaelCrawford 11y ago
    Most police officers have college degrees. I don't know that a degree is specifically regard to get a job as a police officer but I do know that most cops have degrees.
  - yclept 11y ago
    My quick search shows 30-57k for a police officer's average salary.

philwelch 11y ago

Bingo. For-profit prisons exist, but they are a tiny minority. But even the state prisons come with a financial motive attached. And, because people are conditioned to see unions as good guys, this obvious lobbying bias is never checked.

danieltillett 11y ago
Unions are in general a force for good for their members - the problem is there is no countervailing unions to oppose the interests of the prison guard union. If we had more union members in other industries then the interest of these other union members would act as a check on the power of the guards.
- philwelch 11y ago
  The whole point of a union is to benefit its members contra the interests of their employer. The problem with public sector unions is that they benefit government employees contra the interests of the public.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Yes because the vast majority of the public is not in a union. If they were then their union would be fighting for their interest and prevent the public sector unions capturing all the benefits at their expense.
    - zo1 11y ago
      I find it ironic that you call for free-market principles (competition between unions) to be the mechanism by which union-power is kept in check.
      - danieltillett 11y ago
        Why is this ironic? I am a not anti-free markets. If a solution exists for a problem that can be solved by the market then I am of the opinion that the market should solve it.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Nothing ironic about it. Unions, if not enforced on workers by laws, are perfectly valid market mechanisms. Like economists such as Zingales say, pro-market is not necessarily pro-business, and unions are a good way to gage what people actually support.
        MichaelCrawford 11y ago
        Kuro5hin's Orion Blastar is completely convinced that I am anti-business, despite that I own two different corporations and get all my consulting gigs from businesses. However it is hard for me to find work at all because I will not work for companies that I regard as unethical. Orion claims this implies that I regard ALL companies as unethical, but no, only certain specific ones.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    And yet in some countries the union is able to work together with the employer so that everyone wins. (By wins I mean the employer makes money and stays in business and the employees earn a living wage.) This of course requires mature sensible people who see beyond the next financial quarter or the next paycheck.
    - philwelch 11y ago
      For private sector unions this is true, because employers have a vested interest in the success (or at least survival) of their employer. In the public sector, prison guards don't have a vested interest in reducing the prison population (quite the opposite), police officers don't have a vested interest in keeping themselves accountable for use of force (quite the opposite), and so forth.
  - MichaelCrawford 11y ago
    I know many union members who work very hard to promote the interests of their employers. My father and grandfather were union carpenters. They took pride in doing a good job.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    The nurses' union are one of the only few political forces opposing the TPP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUKlBejOlTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUKlBejOlTU That's in the public interest.
jeffmould 11y ago
Actually about 15% of all state/federal prisons are owned or managed by for-profit corporations. There are really two classifications of "for-profit" prisons. One is where the company owns/operates the entire facility. These are the ones that receive the most attention even though they are the minority comparatively. The big for-profit companies usually try to buy first before moving to option 2. The second option is where the state/county builds a prison or jail, owns the facility, possibly supplements some staffing, but contracts out the day-to-day operations to a for-profit company. This is what is more common as many states won't sell the actual facility and/or land. They just want someone to takeover the day-to-day operations so they don't have to worry about it. Both are just as bad and both have occupancy based contracts.
- MichaelCrawford 11y ago
  The incompetent medical and mental health care in the Clark County Jail in Vancouver, Washington is largely due to a contractor trying to save a few pennies by ordering prescription drugs from a pharmacy in Maryland. This has the result that lots of mentally ill inmates - including myself - land in Western State Hospital at a cost to the taxpayer of $550.00 per day. I've been taking psychiatric medicine since 1985; the very most I have ever paid for my happy pills was $1000.00 per month. Because the contractor wants to save perhaps ten dollars per month, every mentally ill inmate goes cold turkey on their medicine when they are detained. Every prescriber I have ever met adamantly urged me never to stop my medicine suddenly. There are all kinds of ways that could lead to death but in my particular case I find myself in a very expensive nuthouse rather than an inexpensive slammer.

bontoJR 11y ago

> In the State of California, the very highest-paying job that can is within reach of most people who do not have college degrees is to be a State prison guard. This is very interesting, this means there's a big business behind it. I don't know which are the requirements to be hired as prison guard, for sure is, as you said, an unpleasant and dangerous work, but I don't get why a prison guard should be paid higher than a cop, that is always facing criminals, but in more dangerous situations. > Several years ago a Federal judge ordered the state to reduce prison overcrowding. It hasn't made much progress. This would definitely cost a lot, prison overcrowding, in some countries, is a big issue. There's no real solution other than build new prisons, hire new people and transfer prisoners. I read in the past an article stating that the future of prisons will be mostly private, turned into a real business. I honestly laughed in a first instance, then reading a lot about the topic, I figured out that maybe that article wasn't so much wrong after all...

praptak 11y ago
"There's no real solution other than build new prisons, hire new people and transfer prisoners." Changing idiotic laws that land harmless people in jail would help a lot.
wisty 11y ago
> I don't get why a prison guard should be paid higher than a cop A quick web search shows cops making $100k, while guards make $70k. I'd imagine the police are more selective though. It might not be "within reach" of a lot of people (low turnover, and higher requirements).
- MichaelCrawford 11y ago
  Most police officers have college degrees. I don't know that a degree is specifically regard to get a job as a police officer but I do know that most cops have degrees.
- yclept 11y ago
  My quick search shows 30-57k for a police officer's average salary.