4 ms·

Well, I'm from Europe and I don't like most of the things that come out of Brussels. In fact, when polls are made it would seem majority share my view. Maybe th

by comboy 11y ago

Well, I'm from Europe and I don't like most of the things that come out of Brussels. In fact, when polls are made it would seem majority share my view. Maybe then 'undemocratic' is not such a bad name for it? It's tons of bureaucracy with very little democracy.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tonyedgecombe 11y ago
I think the majority don't have a clue what laws come out of the EU versus their own parliament. The EU has about 33 thousand employees, this is hardly tons of bureaucracy, just UK local government has 2.3 million employees.
- DanBC 11y ago
  A lot of local government are not strictly bureaucrats but are people providing services.
  - psykovsky 11y ago
    Bureaucracy services, mostly.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      Teaching? Libraries? Rubbish collection? Street cleaning? Public health? Social care; adult social services, child protection social services? Most of that isn't what people think when they hear bureaucracy.
      - psykovsky 11y ago
        All those services are surrounded by huge bureaucratic machines. As is any private company who wishes to make business.
      - bnolsen 11y ago
        you left out the most important..national defense...oh sorry, most of the EU dumped that on the US so it could afford all these social programs!
- _0ffh 11y ago
  The EU Commission is regularly abused by any plurality of national governments to push for Europe-wide legislation that those governments want, but would not be able to enact nationally without significant voter backlash. So, they use European law as an excuse to say "See, we also do not want this, but we are forced to do so!". Same process as happens with international treaties like TPP or TTIP, which when signed would force numerous unpalatable changes to national laws. Ed: And there's much of the reason for the bad rep of the EU inside of the EU. The rest (mostly in the UK) is due to Murdoch's personal interests, obviously.
Atropos 11y ago
You are misinformed, according to the regularly performed Eurobarometer polls (http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb82/eb82_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb82/eb82_en....), there is not a single poll since 2006 where more people had a negative view than a positive view of the EU.
- dagw 11y ago
  It's possible to have different views of the EU and on Brussels. While on balance I put myself on pro-EU side of scales it doesn't mean I have positive view of the way the European Parliament is currently run.
fauigerzigerk 11y ago
Do you even know most things that come out of Brussels? Your sentiment is shared by many people all over the world with regard to their own national governments as well. That doesn't make all these countries undemocratic. A recent poll in the US shows that 65% of likely U.S voters think that their country is going in the wrong direction (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/right_direction_or_wrong_track http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood...). And that doesn't even speak of the almost 50% of people who don't vote. What is special about the EU is that national politicians and tabloid media love to use it as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with our modern globalised world. That is especially true for the UK.
- loup-vaillant 11y ago
  > That doesn't make all these countries undemocratic. A few examples do show a blatant lack of democracy, though. In France, we had a referendum regarding the new European constitution. We refused it at 60% (not counting abstention, which by the way was relatively low). Then a dozen months later, the same constitution came back (sections were shuffled around, but it was mostly a copy-paste job). No referendum this time. It was submitted to the parliament instead. They said yes, despite indisputable evidence that the people did not want this. This is as undemocratic as it gets. Elections don't make a country democratic. We need much stronger guarantees.
  - antientropic 11y ago
    It was not undemocratic. Your parliament was democratically elected. It had a mandate to do things like ratifying new European treaties. The problem was holding the referendum in the first place. Direct democracy does not work because it's a recipe for paralysis.
    - 2a0c40 11y ago
      Doesn't it? Did you check Switzerland?
simias 11y ago
Don't forget that politicians of every country tend to take the credit when the EU does something popular while they're quick to blame Brussels when poorly-received reforms are made. Not to say that everything's great in europe's current state of affair but be careful not to be too influenced by political propaganda. Remember that the political direction of the union is set by the council which comprises the various head of states of the union. It's not like the parliament is this rogue extranational body that unilaterally dictates its will to the members of the EU.

by comboy 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

tonyedgecombe 11y ago

I think the majority don't have a clue what laws come out of the EU versus their own parliament. The EU has about 33 thousand employees, this is hardly tons of bureaucracy, just UK local government has 2.3 million employees.

DanBC 11y ago
A lot of local government are not strictly bureaucrats but are people providing services.
- psykovsky 11y ago
  Bureaucracy services, mostly.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Teaching? Libraries? Rubbish collection? Street cleaning? Public health? Social care; adult social services, child protection social services? Most of that isn't what people think when they hear bureaucracy.
    - psykovsky 11y ago
      All those services are surrounded by huge bureaucratic machines. As is any private company who wishes to make business.
    - bnolsen 11y ago
      you left out the most important..national defense...oh sorry, most of the EU dumped that on the US so it could afford all these social programs!
_0ffh 11y ago
The EU Commission is regularly abused by any plurality of national governments to push for Europe-wide legislation that those governments want, but would not be able to enact nationally without significant voter backlash. So, they use European law as an excuse to say "See, we also do not want this, but we are forced to do so!". Same process as happens with international treaties like TPP or TTIP, which when signed would force numerous unpalatable changes to national laws. Ed: And there's much of the reason for the bad rep of the EU inside of the EU. The rest (mostly in the UK) is due to Murdoch's personal interests, obviously.

Atropos 11y ago

You are misinformed, according to the regularly performed Eurobarometer polls (http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb82/eb82_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb82/eb82_en....), there is not a single poll since 2006 where more people had a negative view than a positive view of the EU.

dagw 11y ago
It's possible to have different views of the EU and on Brussels. While on balance I put myself on pro-EU side of scales it doesn't mean I have positive view of the way the European Parliament is currently run.

fauigerzigerk 11y ago

Do you even know most things that come out of Brussels? Your sentiment is shared by many people all over the world with regard to their own national governments as well. That doesn't make all these countries undemocratic. A recent poll in the US shows that 65% of likely U.S voters think that their country is going in the wrong direction (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/right_direction_or_wrong_track http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood...). And that doesn't even speak of the almost 50% of people who don't vote. What is special about the EU is that national politicians and tabloid media love to use it as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with our modern globalised world. That is especially true for the UK.

loup-vaillant 11y ago
> That doesn't make all these countries undemocratic. A few examples do show a blatant lack of democracy, though. In France, we had a referendum regarding the new European constitution. We refused it at 60% (not counting abstention, which by the way was relatively low). Then a dozen months later, the same constitution came back (sections were shuffled around, but it was mostly a copy-paste job). No referendum this time. It was submitted to the parliament instead. They said yes, despite indisputable evidence that the people did not want this. This is as undemocratic as it gets. Elections don't make a country democratic. We need much stronger guarantees.
- antientropic 11y ago
  It was not undemocratic. Your parliament was democratically elected. It had a mandate to do things like ratifying new European treaties. The problem was holding the referendum in the first place. Direct democracy does not work because it's a recipe for paralysis.
  - 2a0c40 11y ago
    Doesn't it? Did you check Switzerland?

simias 11y ago

Don't forget that politicians of every country tend to take the credit when the EU does something popular while they're quick to blame Brussels when poorly-received reforms are made. Not to say that everything's great in europe's current state of affair but be careful not to be too influenced by political propaganda. Remember that the political direction of the union is set by the council which comprises the various head of states of the union. It's not like the parliament is this rogue extranational body that unilaterally dictates its will to the members of the EU.