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Would they trust Native American scientists? Are they satisfied with their current histories? Do they not really care much to know how their ancestors moved ac

Would they trust Native American scientists? Are they satisfied with their current histories? Do they not really care much to know how their ancestors moved across the continents?

Mz 11y ago
I am 1/32 Cherokee. I am sure I would not be embraced by Native Americans as one of them. But I also surely do not implicitly trust white scientists. Or any scientists. I come from a long line of really paranoid people. This is why we live.
- nycticorax 11y ago
  He said "it's a shame" not "they're being stupid". Because these physical anthropologists are probably not part of some grand conspiracy against Native Americans or anyone else. They probably just want to know how humans originally migrated into the Americas. Because, you know, they're scientists, and scientists are curious.
  - Mz 11y ago
    The problem with your remark is the implicit assumption that there is more "shame" in the lack of trust Native Americans have for whites than in the atrocities committed by whites that engendered that lack of trust, as if scientific curiosity justifies sweeping aside their very legitimate concerns and the long history of genocide here. Anyway, I do not plan to participate further in this discussion. My absence is not to be read as tacit admission of having lost the argument or some such. My concern is the HN algorithm. I don't want it dumped from the front page because excessive replies from me trip some unthinking, automatic algorithm switch.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > The problem with your remark is the implicit assumption that there is more "shame" in the lack of trust Native Americans have for whites than in the atrocities committed by whites that engendered that lack of trust I don't see any reason to infer that message from the remark in question. The remark is about the refusal and distrust, and notes that the distrust is a shame. In neither states nor implies anything comparative about the relation between that and any other situation that may or may not also be a shame, including, inter alia, those that contributed to the one being discussed.
    - stephengillie 11y ago
      You seem to be very sensitive about this entire topic. I am sorry if my comments offended or harmed you.
  - omegaworks 11y ago
    The federal government forcibly sterilized Native American women without consent under the guise of medical treatment. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/543.html http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/543.html This is not fantasy. This is reality. The wounds are fresh.
orthecreedence 11y ago
You're coming at this from a white man's perspective. "I can't possibly see what they have against knowing their history!" Try coming at it from the Native American perspective. Almost every thing the white man has ever told them has been a lie. From trade deals to war treaties. The white man took their lands by force and trickery and soon had them living in reservations or participating in death marches. Of course natives are going to be skeptical when white scientists tell them their history...history which they have their own cultural representation of. As modern western folk, we like to view the world with our scientific lens, and view what we see through it as the truth. But our science is no more truth than light bouncing off an object is the object itself. Natives have their own account of their history. It's no more or less important than our account of their history, but our version is certainly going to be met with some (rightful) skepticism.
- stephengillie 11y ago
  I'm trying to come from the perspective of someone who values data over no data. But you're right, I can't just shed my privileged perspective. It seems like the point being indirectly communicated (somewhat by you, but also by other posters on this page), is that the concepts of "Aborigines Native American" and "Scientist" are incompatible. Like, it's a role that exists in our society, but not in theirs. Or something like that, their culture doesn't value that kind of information. I don't wish to offend out of my own ignorance of others' cultures.
  - orthecreedence 11y ago
    I see where you're coming from, and have a few responses > someone who values data over no data I'm saying natives are most likely viewing passed down cultural history as data just as much as historic DNA, but in the case of DNA, the data comes from a historically untrustworthy source. I think it's sad that the suspicion exists between the "white man" and the native people. I have roots in both so I see the issue from your side as well: there's perfectly good data that could help natives tell their story, should they choose to use it. > their culture doesn't value that kind of information This is an interesting point. I'm actually not aware of how advanced science is in native cultures, or how much of a drive there is to have advanced science. I know in general there is a resistance to losing their culture. But maybe there are people in various tribes who would jump at the chance to access DNA information from a long lost ancestor. > I don't wish to offend I don't think you offended anyone at all as much sparked interesting conversation. A lot of what makes this issue interesting is that there are several different cultural perspectives looking at one thing from many different angles. I think in this case nobody is right or wrong, we all have access to the same information and are drawing separate conclusions.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Are they satisfied with their current histories? Probably. At the very least, for most of them refining detailed factual accounts of their history is not high on the list of needs they'd like to see addressed. > Do they not really care much to know how their ancestors moved across the continents? Why would they? I would suggest that most people don't care much about that, regardless of race/ethnicity. Its just that most people don't have a history which creates a perceived risk associated with going along with what it takes to help satisfy other people's curiosity about this kind of thing.

Would they trust Native American scientists? Are they satisfied with their current histories? Do they not really care much to know how their ancestors moved across the continents?

Mz 11y ago

I am 1/32 Cherokee. I am sure I would not be embraced by Native Americans as one of them. But I also surely do not implicitly trust white scientists. Or any scientists. I come from a long line of really paranoid people. This is why we live.

nycticorax 11y ago
He said "it's a shame" not "they're being stupid". Because these physical anthropologists are probably not part of some grand conspiracy against Native Americans or anyone else. They probably just want to know how humans originally migrated into the Americas. Because, you know, they're scientists, and scientists are curious.
- Mz 11y ago
  The problem with your remark is the implicit assumption that there is more "shame" in the lack of trust Native Americans have for whites than in the atrocities committed by whites that engendered that lack of trust, as if scientific curiosity justifies sweeping aside their very legitimate concerns and the long history of genocide here. Anyway, I do not plan to participate further in this discussion. My absence is not to be read as tacit admission of having lost the argument or some such. My concern is the HN algorithm. I don't want it dumped from the front page because excessive replies from me trip some unthinking, automatic algorithm switch.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > The problem with your remark is the implicit assumption that there is more "shame" in the lack of trust Native Americans have for whites than in the atrocities committed by whites that engendered that lack of trust I don't see any reason to infer that message from the remark in question. The remark is about the refusal and distrust, and notes that the distrust is a shame. In neither states nor implies anything comparative about the relation between that and any other situation that may or may not also be a shame, including, inter alia, those that contributed to the one being discussed.
  - stephengillie 11y ago
    You seem to be very sensitive about this entire topic. I am sorry if my comments offended or harmed you.
- omegaworks 11y ago
  The federal government forcibly sterilized Native American women without consent under the guise of medical treatment. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/543.html http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/543.html This is not fantasy. This is reality. The wounds are fresh.

orthecreedence 11y ago

You're coming at this from a white man's perspective. "I can't possibly see what they have against knowing their history!" Try coming at it from the Native American perspective. Almost every thing the white man has ever told them has been a lie. From trade deals to war treaties. The white man took their lands by force and trickery and soon had them living in reservations or participating in death marches. Of course natives are going to be skeptical when white scientists tell them their history...history which they have their own cultural representation of. As modern western folk, we like to view the world with our scientific lens, and view what we see through it as the truth. But our science is no more truth than light bouncing off an object is the object itself. Natives have their own account of their history. It's no more or less important than our account of their history, but our version is certainly going to be met with some (rightful) skepticism.

stephengillie 11y ago
I'm trying to come from the perspective of someone who values data over no data. But you're right, I can't just shed my privileged perspective. It seems like the point being indirectly communicated (somewhat by you, but also by other posters on this page), is that the concepts of "Aborigines Native American" and "Scientist" are incompatible. Like, it's a role that exists in our society, but not in theirs. Or something like that, their culture doesn't value that kind of information. I don't wish to offend out of my own ignorance of others' cultures.
- orthecreedence 11y ago
  I see where you're coming from, and have a few responses > someone who values data over no data I'm saying natives are most likely viewing passed down cultural history as data just as much as historic DNA, but in the case of DNA, the data comes from a historically untrustworthy source. I think it's sad that the suspicion exists between the "white man" and the native people. I have roots in both so I see the issue from your side as well: there's perfectly good data that could help natives tell their story, should they choose to use it. > their culture doesn't value that kind of information This is an interesting point. I'm actually not aware of how advanced science is in native cultures, or how much of a drive there is to have advanced science. I know in general there is a resistance to losing their culture. But maybe there are people in various tribes who would jump at the chance to access DNA information from a long lost ancestor. > I don't wish to offend I don't think you offended anyone at all as much sparked interesting conversation. A lot of what makes this issue interesting is that there are several different cultural perspectives looking at one thing from many different angles. I think in this case nobody is right or wrong, we all have access to the same information and are drawing separate conclusions.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> Are they satisfied with their current histories? Probably. At the very least, for most of them refining detailed factual accounts of their history is not high on the list of needs they'd like to see addressed. > Do they not really care much to know how their ancestors moved across the continents? Why would they? I would suggest that most people don't care much about that, regardless of race/ethnicity. Its just that most people don't have a history which creates a perceived risk associated with going along with what it takes to help satisfy other people's curiosity about this kind of thing.