4 ms·

Agree that mis-conduct on the internet is always in poor taste, and also agree that sometimes pointers can help people with some basic tips that make their ques

by spotman 11y ago

Agree that mis-conduct on the internet is always in poor taste, and also agree that sometimes pointers can help people with some basic tips that make their quest to give or receive help more palatable. Having said that, I certainly hope that this does not become some sort of thing that people spend a lot of time worrying about, enforcing, or baby sitting others. For example, the sheer fact that a CoC could exist for go, may mean that people spend time policing rather than programming. Until reading this I was not aware Rust had a CoC. Can anyone comment on the process that was used to create this, and how its going? Is there recourse for someone that is out of line? Is there human energy spent on policing this? For me, programming languages shouldn't dictate CoC. However, I think it makes a lot more sense for communities to. So where do you draw the line between community and programming language? Obviously a programming language like C has no central community really. However with Rust and Go and some others there is main IRC channels and more. I just can't help but feel that the forum, IRC network, etc, should be responsible for the CoC. I don't like that Go could end up having a prescribed culture. Some of the most talented C programmers I know are edgy, intolerable people. I would hate for some of their work to get thrown out because they can't be relied on to have a sane discussion 1/2 the time. What can we really do as community to enforce it at the language level really? I can see someone being banned from a forum. But, what if they don't stop using Golang? Seems like something that is impossible to police.

enneff 11y ago
The success of Go depends on a healthy community. I am quite happy to lose some talented people if they can't play well with others.
- davecheney 11y ago
  > The success of Go depends on a healthy community. I am quite happy to lose some talented people if they can't play well with others. Hear! Hear!
- spotman 11y ago
  What prevents someone like linus torvalds from being kicked out for cussing at people? Would linux be where it is today? Those are the type of people I am referring to. Not racist people, for example. Now I understand that his issues are not the ones that are ultimately the goal of fixing here. But where do you draw the line? And is is the programming languages responsibility to police this? Where is the CoC for C anyways:) ?
  - enneff 11y ago
    It's pretty hard to kick Linus out of his own project. That's how he does things and that's what his contributors will apparently put up with. I guess it works for him. But I don't want to work with people who behave like Linus does (at his worst), regardless of how good they are. The people who do contribute to the Go core are very talented hackers who also manage to treat each other with respect, so obviously it can be done.
    - spotman 11y ago
      Agreed on the hard to kick linus out of linux. However, this is an interesting discussion. Linus (to my knowledge, please feel free to post evidence otherwise) has not been racist or displayed misogynistic behavior, has he? So, here you have a very talented indivdual, who is very opinionated and uses some coarse language at times. While I could also go without the coarse language, he is often right (not saying 100% of the time, but he has earned his reputation) and I would absolutely hate if by adding a CoC you lose people like him. So, the CoC could clearly articulate that linus-like behavior is ok, and racism is not, it makes it hard to police. Especially when on this very thread, you say you would rather not work with people like that, so then do we add coarse language to the CoC too? Thoughts?
      - tptacek 11y ago
        You should read the Django Code Of Conduct before venturing further into this discussion, because what 'enneff is talking about isn't simply harassment. What they're trying to do is set expectations about decorum and professional courtesy; for instance, if you're on the mailing list or IRC channel and someone asks a question with an "obvious" answer that has been covered 10 times before, how are community participants expected to respond to that? Lots of communities without codes of conduct get testy, hostile, inhospitable, snarky, or obstreperous when those kinds of things happen, and that makes the community harder to engage with, especially for newcomers.
- daily_dose 11y ago
  This is a good example of an oxymoron.
jacalata 11y ago
>, I certainly hope that this does not become some sort of thing that people spend a lot of time worrying about, Some people already had to spend time worrying about behaviour in the community, as made clear by the references to existing reports of harassment. Making the rest of the community spend some time thinking about it is just sharing the load.
- spotman 11y ago
  I read the linked article. Didn't see them, nor have heard about them. Daily user of go for multiple years now.
  - spotman 11y ago
    Interesting that I am getting down voted multiple times in this thread. Maybe I don't understand down votes? Definitely trying to be polite here and ask serious questions. Can anyone link me to these, I'm genuinely interested. Thank you.
  - jacalata 11y ago
    So?
    - spotman 11y ago
      Sorry, I realized I forgot to append: can you link me? I'm interested. Thank you.
      - jacalata 11y ago
        No, I don't know of any public reports. You could try asking the author of the post for details, but that would be weird - it has a strong overtone of "I don't believe you".
nnethercote 11y ago
> Until reading this I was not aware Rust had a CoC. Can anyone comment on the process that was used to create this, and how its going? I don't know how it was created, but my perception is that it's working extremely well. There's a high emphasis in Rust spaces on being friendly and polite, and as a result places like the IRC channels, email lists and other online forums are extremely pleasant spaces, much more so than the average. Even the Rust subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/rust http://www.reddit.com/r/rust) is a very pleasant and polite place; note the permanent link to the CoC at the top. http://scattered-thoughts.net/blog/2015/06/04/three-months-of-rust/ http://scattered-thoughts.net/blog/2015/06/04/three-months-o... summed it up beautifully: > The Rust community seems to be populated entirely by human beings. I have no idea how this was done. I suspect Graydon Hoare deserves a large share of the credit for leading by example but everyone I have interacted with in the community has been friendly and patient.
- nnethercote 11y ago
  And here's a good example of this in action: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.rust.devel/4767/ http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.rust.devel/4767/
epsylon 11y ago
> Having said that, I certainly hope that this does not become some sort of thing that people spend a lot of time worrying about, enforcing, or baby sitting others. If that is the case, then that precisely proves the usefulness of such a code.

by spotman 11y ago

enneff 11y ago

The success of Go depends on a healthy community. I am quite happy to lose some talented people if they can't play well with others.

davecheney 11y ago
> The success of Go depends on a healthy community. I am quite happy to lose some talented people if they can't play well with others. Hear! Hear!
spotman 11y ago
What prevents someone like linus torvalds from being kicked out for cussing at people? Would linux be where it is today? Those are the type of people I am referring to. Not racist people, for example. Now I understand that his issues are not the ones that are ultimately the goal of fixing here. But where do you draw the line? And is is the programming languages responsibility to police this? Where is the CoC for C anyways:) ?
- enneff 11y ago
  It's pretty hard to kick Linus out of his own project. That's how he does things and that's what his contributors will apparently put up with. I guess it works for him. But I don't want to work with people who behave like Linus does (at his worst), regardless of how good they are. The people who do contribute to the Go core are very talented hackers who also manage to treat each other with respect, so obviously it can be done.
  - spotman 11y ago
    Agreed on the hard to kick linus out of linux. However, this is an interesting discussion. Linus (to my knowledge, please feel free to post evidence otherwise) has not been racist or displayed misogynistic behavior, has he? So, here you have a very talented indivdual, who is very opinionated and uses some coarse language at times. While I could also go without the coarse language, he is often right (not saying 100% of the time, but he has earned his reputation) and I would absolutely hate if by adding a CoC you lose people like him. So, the CoC could clearly articulate that linus-like behavior is ok, and racism is not, it makes it hard to police. Especially when on this very thread, you say you would rather not work with people like that, so then do we add coarse language to the CoC too? Thoughts?
    - tptacek 11y ago
      You should read the Django Code Of Conduct before venturing further into this discussion, because what 'enneff is talking about isn't simply harassment. What they're trying to do is set expectations about decorum and professional courtesy; for instance, if you're on the mailing list or IRC channel and someone asks a question with an "obvious" answer that has been covered 10 times before, how are community participants expected to respond to that? Lots of communities without codes of conduct get testy, hostile, inhospitable, snarky, or obstreperous when those kinds of things happen, and that makes the community harder to engage with, especially for newcomers.
daily_dose 11y ago
This is a good example of an oxymoron.

jacalata 11y ago

>, I certainly hope that this does not become some sort of thing that people spend a lot of time worrying about, Some people already had to spend time worrying about behaviour in the community, as made clear by the references to existing reports of harassment. Making the rest of the community spend some time thinking about it is just sharing the load.

spotman 11y ago
I read the linked article. Didn't see them, nor have heard about them. Daily user of go for multiple years now.
- spotman 11y ago
  Interesting that I am getting down voted multiple times in this thread. Maybe I don't understand down votes? Definitely trying to be polite here and ask serious questions. Can anyone link me to these, I'm genuinely interested. Thank you.
- jacalata 11y ago
  So?
  - spotman 11y ago
    Sorry, I realized I forgot to append: can you link me? I'm interested. Thank you.
    - jacalata 11y ago
      No, I don't know of any public reports. You could try asking the author of the post for details, but that would be weird - it has a strong overtone of "I don't believe you".

nnethercote 11y ago

> Until reading this I was not aware Rust had a CoC. Can anyone comment on the process that was used to create this, and how its going? I don't know how it was created, but my perception is that it's working extremely well. There's a high emphasis in Rust spaces on being friendly and polite, and as a result places like the IRC channels, email lists and other online forums are extremely pleasant spaces, much more so than the average. Even the Rust subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/rust http://www.reddit.com/r/rust) is a very pleasant and polite place; note the permanent link to the CoC at the top. http://scattered-thoughts.net/blog/2015/06/04/three-months-of-rust/ http://scattered-thoughts.net/blog/2015/06/04/three-months-o... summed it up beautifully: > The Rust community seems to be populated entirely by human beings. I have no idea how this was done. I suspect Graydon Hoare deserves a large share of the credit for leading by example but everyone I have interacted with in the community has been friendly and patient.

nnethercote 11y ago
And here's a good example of this in action: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.rust.devel/4767/ http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.rust.devel/4767/

epsylon 11y ago

> Having said that, I certainly hope that this does not become some sort of thing that people spend a lot of time worrying about, enforcing, or baby sitting others. If that is the case, then that precisely proves the usefulness of such a code.