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> we were already diverse by design decades ago I would suggest actually asking (not talking) with minorities in tech about how diverse/tolerant the tech indus

by KingMob 11y ago

> we were already diverse by design decades ago I would suggest actually asking (not talking) with minorities in tech about how diverse/tolerant the tech industry appears to them. Part of being in a privileged group is blindness to the experiences of those outside the group, so without conversation, we live in an echo chamber. Discrimination is rarely an intentional thing, but caused by our unexamined attitudes and beliefs. I don't consider myself racist at all, but my half-black fiance routinely points out blind spots I'd never noticed. > I find it offensive that there are claims of sexism in OSS and tech. This statement sort of assumes the claims are groundless. But until you ask outsiders for their experiences, how can you be sure? What basis do you use that you are so sure you're right?

anon3_ 11y ago
> Part of being in a privileged group is blindness to the experiences of those outside the group, so without conversation, we live in an echo chamber. That's interesting. I haven't see it that way before. > This statement sort of assumes the claims are groundless. But until you ask outsiders for their experiences, how can you be sure? Good point, perhaps they will have stories where they have been judged by their race. How can it be demonstrated it's not merely their own perception? The court systems and the internet are both open, can anyone here point out instances of discrimination? However, asking for experiences without a process to vet the facts may lead to the best data. Doesn't everyone sort of think they come out of unfair circumstances one way or another?
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > That's interesting. I haven't see it that way before. If you're interested in reading about perspectives other than your own, the Geek Feminism wiki is a good place to start; they've got a pile of resources, as well as well-documented incidents. Your first instinct in reading many of those may be some degree of shock, denial, or a search for mitigating factors. Examine that reaction carefully, resist the natural urge to reject data that contradicts your current views or information, and keep reading. And since it looks like you're taking either a scientific or legalistic viewpoint in terms of seeking evidence, consider the term "preponderance of the evidence". When you have enough incidents and enough perspectives arguing that sexism is a thing, perhaps you should examine why you're attempting to "debunk" it or make entitled demands for proof rather than listening.

by KingMob 11y ago

anon3_ 11y ago

> Part of being in a privileged group is blindness to the experiences of those outside the group, so without conversation, we live in an echo chamber. That's interesting. I haven't see it that way before. > This statement sort of assumes the claims are groundless. But until you ask outsiders for their experiences, how can you be sure? Good point, perhaps they will have stories where they have been judged by their race. How can it be demonstrated it's not merely their own perception? The court systems and the internet are both open, can anyone here point out instances of discrimination? However, asking for experiences without a process to vet the facts may lead to the best data. Doesn't everyone sort of think they come out of unfair circumstances one way or another?

JoshTriplett 11y ago
> That's interesting. I haven't see it that way before. If you're interested in reading about perspectives other than your own, the Geek Feminism wiki is a good place to start; they've got a pile of resources, as well as well-documented incidents. Your first instinct in reading many of those may be some degree of shock, denial, or a search for mitigating factors. Examine that reaction carefully, resist the natural urge to reject data that contradicts your current views or information, and keep reading. And since it looks like you're taking either a scientific or legalistic viewpoint in terms of seeking evidence, consider the term "preponderance of the evidence". When you have enough incidents and enough perspectives arguing that sexism is a thing, perhaps you should examine why you're attempting to "debunk" it or make entitled demands for proof rather than listening.