7 ms·

A Code of Conduct for the Go community

68 points by sethvargo 11y ago

jgrahamc 11y ago
I'm also concerned by reports of abuse, harassment, and discrimination in our community, particularly toward women and other underrepresented groups. Even I have experienced harassment and abuse myself. This may be common in the tech industry but it is not OK. Not, it is not OK. And this entire post could have been written about other languages and other communities. Glad that Andrew is saying this for Go. It's amazing the abuse people dole out when they are online and behind a keyboard. When I was running the Alan Turing apology campaign in 2009 I received all sorts of hate in my inbox. I wasn't shocked by it because I've been using the Internet since 1986, but I was saddened.
- mmgutz 11y ago
  Are there any references to this abuse, harrassment and discrimination from the Golang community? I haven't seen it in my year working with Go. Seems like a pretty broad generalization.
  - enneff 11y ago
    If you're not subject to it then you won't notice it. I have noticed because I've had it reported to me directly. I wasn't aware of it before then. Also it is not a "generalization". These are isolated incidents but they are harmful to the people involved.
  - comrh 11y ago
    You need specific examples? Believing people when they say they are being harassed and have to deal with toxic people isn't enough?
- pdeuchler 11y ago
  As a group we humans are a pretty terrible bunch. History tends to confirm this pretty readily, the internet just gives us a much bigger megaphone
leereeves 11y ago
> I'm also concerned by reports of abuse, harassment, and discrimination in our community, particularly toward women and other underrepresented groups. Even I have experienced harassment and abuse myself. This may be common in the tech industry but it is not OK. I find it hard to imagine other professionals (doctors, lawyers, accountants, even other engineering disciplines) behaving like this. Is that a failure of imagination on my part or is IT/CS particularly toxic?
- pekk 11y ago
  This is a property of specific communities, not everyone who works with computers.
- jackyb 11y ago
  I think it's just because of internet. I bet they would be much nicer IRL. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
- TallGuyShort 11y ago
  It could be made worse by the anonymity that is common in our profession. There tend to be trolls in any online forum, regardless of interest, and much of the work in our profession is done via similar channels. And let's be honest, many of us (myself included) grew up hacking on computers instead of developing typical social skills. Some people grow out of that, some people grow into jerks. edit: one further thought, there are many cases where someone is a brilliant programmer precisely because they're borderline mentally ill, and that causes some social problems as well.
- spikels 11y ago
  If you think there is no "abuse, harassment, and discrimination" in the medical, legal, accounting and non-IT engineering professions, you are not paying attention. These are global human problems not restricted to IT/CS.
  - leereeves 11y ago
    I didn't mean to imply that there is no "abuse, harassment, and discrimination" in other professions. Of course there are bad people in every field. But are there death threats, rape threats, doxxing, etc, against total strangers? Serious question. I just haven't heard of that, except perhaps in the military and police.
bsaul 11y ago
I'm amazed that an online group whose focus is to talk about a programming language thinks about adopting a code of conduct... I would have thought trying to keep the discussions about the programming language itself would be enough. Is it some kind of american / californian extreme sensitivity to heated debates or has there been a recent invasion of trolls i'm unaware of ?
- enneff 11y ago
  You'd hope so, but people are pretty bad at being civil on the Internet, in general.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  Both. American culture has created an image of "harrassment and discrimination" very specific to the US, so a lot of people tend to see it where there is none, and be blind to actual instances of it (The hilarious/sad debate on "discrimination" in the most recent Witcher game comes to mind. Feel free to google it, I will not fuel that fire). That said, online communities tend to very easily turn elitism into hostility, and hostility into hatefulness. Incredibly toxic. I'm not sure how a code of conduct helps - if you have to spell out to people that they shouldn't be hateful, there's a bigger problem at stake, and the code of conduct is just here to protect the community from wrongdoing, not hostile behaviour. But hey, it can't actually hurt to have one, so why not. I hope it helps, the cynic in me just doubts it will. Edit: I see any post discussing the nature of the CoC and not blindly saying "this is awesome! woohoo!" is getting downvoted quite heavily. That's pretty sad, and a great way to encourage people never to speak against the majority (in this case, there is a majority of americans on HN online at this hour). Think about that, for a moment.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Is it some kind of american / californian extreme sensitivity to heated debates Yes, this pretty much nails it.
- sanxiyn 11y ago
  > I would have thought trying to keep the discussions about the programming language itself would be enough. This is actually quite tricky. Policing off-topic in IRC channel is harder than policing abuses. For a concrete example, Go discussion is often tolerated in #rust IRC channel and I think it should be, but "boobs or gtfo" should not be tolerated. I was actually in the channel when "boobs or gtfo" incident happened, and it was one of reasons for Rust to adopt a code of conduct.
agonzalezro 11y ago
Since the CoCs started to be a thing I always though that they were unnecessary because I growth with the mantra: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Said that, sadly, this doesn't seem to be a true statement in tech and a CoC doesn't hurt. I am ok with Go getting one if it's going to make people feel more welcomed on the community.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >"do unto others as you would have them do unto you". So a masochist can hit other people? I'm joking, but it shows a general issue with that motto: that what a person finds acceptable might not be what others want in a project. E.g. person X likes seeing cat pictures in HN, and wants other people to post cat pictures. But that doesn't mean that X posting cat pictures would be what the others want too.
  - enneff 11y ago
    For once I actually agree with you, coldtea. It is not enough to rely on everyone's unique instincts and preferences. This is why we need a Code of Conduct.
  - WoodenChair 11y ago
    You're taking a literal reading out of something that's not meant to be literal. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" means treat other people with respect and be nice to them because most people like to be respected and treated nicely. You're right it probably wasn't written 5000 years ago for the extreme case of a person who likes being treated badly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
    - mentat 11y ago
      Or you could just take the less imposing version and not do to others what you don't want done to yourself.
    - coldtea 11y ago
coldtea 11y ago
Is "you should, at every opportunity, declare how you can do useful work without generics, and that people asking for them haven't done any real work in Go" in there?
spotman 11y ago
Agree that mis-conduct on the internet is always in poor taste, and also agree that sometimes pointers can help people with some basic tips that make their quest to give or receive help more palatable. Having said that, I certainly hope that this does not become some sort of thing that people spend a lot of time worrying about, enforcing, or baby sitting others. For example, the sheer fact that a CoC could exist for go, may mean that people spend time policing rather than programming. Until reading this I was not aware Rust had a CoC. Can anyone comment on the process that was used to create this, and how its going? Is there recourse for someone that is out of line? Is there human energy spent on policing this? For me, programming languages shouldn't dictate CoC. However, I think it makes a lot more sense for communities to. So where do you draw the line between community and programming language? Obviously a programming language like C has no central community really. However with Rust and Go and some others there is main IRC channels and more. I just can't help but feel that the forum, IRC network, etc, should be responsible for the CoC. I don't like that Go could end up having a prescribed culture. Some of the most talented C programmers I know are edgy, intolerable people. I would hate for some of their work to get thrown out because they can't be relied on to have a sane discussion 1/2 the time. What can we really do as community to enforce it at the language level really? I can see someone being banned from a forum. But, what if they don't stop using Golang? Seems like something that is impossible to police.
- enneff 11y ago
  The success of Go depends on a healthy community. I am quite happy to lose some talented people if they can't play well with others.
  - davecheney 11y ago
    > The success of Go depends on a healthy community. I am quite happy to lose some talented people if they can't play well with others. Hear! Hear!
  - spotman 11y ago
    What prevents someone like linus torvalds from being kicked out for cussing at people? Would linux be where it is today? Those are the type of people I am referring to. Not racist people, for example. Now I understand that his issues are not the ones that are ultimately the goal of fixing here. But where do you draw the line? And is is the programming languages responsibility to police this? Where is the CoC for C anyways:) ?
daily_dose 11y ago
You can't control the way other people act, how delusional are you fools? Online communities have always self-regulated, let nature run its' course and stop interfering, it's pathetic.
gregors 11y ago
In other news people dealing with other people cause problems, see world history for more details.
anon3_ 11y ago
I'm sad to see more political correctness invading these circles. A few years ago, I was so happy to see a girl every now and then at our LUG. Me and the other guys were jumping over each other to help her. After years of seeing censorship and lives ruined over off-hand comments, I immediately see women instinctually view her as a risk. Is she a lawsuit? Is she going to report me for code of conduct violations when things don't go her way? Sure, the women may laugh at my jokes for a few months. But when I eventually tell her no for a reason based on her shortcomings, she can conveniently report me for revenge. Institionalizing political correctness breeds biases and hatred. It's a pressure cooker. You can't even criticize this stuff without being outed as a heretic.
- sanswork 11y ago
  It's not difficult to just treat people like normal humans. >Me and the other guys were jumping over each other to help her. This is an example of a problem where you think you're being helpful but all you're doing is separating someone from the group and probably harassing them. Were you and the other guys jumping over each other to help every guy that showed up? Why the women? Were you doing it because you were nice or because it was a woman and you hoped to get something in return? >Is she a lawsuit? Is she going to report me for code of conduct violations when things don't go her way? You talk about fear of criticizing this stuff but almost everyone who lives their lives in fear of a sexual discrimination lawsuit do so because they regularly act inappropriately around others. >Sure, the women may laugh at my jokes for a few months. But when I eventually tell her no for a reason based on her shortcomings, she can conveniently report me for revenge. Sure the woman may put up with your actions for a few months but everyone has a breaking point. Your whole post is about how sneaky and devious you see women as and how you fear for your safety due to these traits. You're like a self fulfilling prophecy. If you ever do end up involved in a lawsuit it likely won't be due to women in general being sneaky or seeking revenge it will likely be due to your belief that they act like that causing you to act negatively towards them.
  - Rumford 11y ago
    > This is an example of a problem where you think you're being helpful but all you're doing is separating someone from the group and probably harassing them. Choosing to interpret clumsiness as "abuse" is EXACTLY the problem he's describing. If "jumping over each other to help her" is inappropriate, then someone needs to describe what is appropriate when the group is trying to go out of their way to welcome someone who isn't the group's usual demographic. It is not OK to label everything they do as abusive without explaining what your standard for good behavior would be. > Were you doing it because you were nice or because it was a woman and you hoped to get something in return? And then you accuse him of viewing all women with suspicion. Do you not see the hypocrisy? > Your whole post is about how sneaky and devious you see women as and how you fear for your safety due to these traits. Again, stupendously wrong. I think you're twisting his words this way on purpose and it turns my stomach that people are getting away with this. He's not complaining about "women" being "devious." He's complaining about the poisonous and paranoid culture that is created when certain groups have carte blanche to hang the scarlet letter of "Harassment" on you for God-only-knows what reason. There is no question we should treat people with respect. But whether they belong to some minority, or some supposedly aggrieved group, DOES NOT MATTER. A person is a person. Isn't that the goal of "equality"? If there's a way you need other people to act in order for you to feel comfortable, fine, you have every right to tell people what those boundaries of yours are. At the same time though, your comfort zone does not automatically obligate everyone around you to change.
ternaryoperator 11y ago
The problem with a Code of Conduct is that for it to have any meaning, it needs to be enforced--someone has to kick out repeat offenders, otherwise the code is just words. For this reason, having a code that reflects "what we aspire to," rather than "don't do this," is laudable, but probably not workable. At some point, I believe, you have to state consequences for specific actions.
nnethercote 11y ago
Good for them.
4ydx 11y ago
As long as it is only about trying to get people to think about what they are saying that seems ok, but I suspect it will only degrade into a pitchfork mob on most occasions. Really as others have suggested the only required "rule" is: talk about programming.

68 points by sethvargo 11y ago

I'm also concerned by reports of abuse, harassment, and discrimination in our community, particularly toward women and other underrepresented groups. Even I have experienced harassment and abuse myself. This may be common in the tech industry but it is not OK. Not, it is not OK. And this entire post could have been written about other languages and other communities. Glad that Andrew is saying this for Go. It's amazing the abuse people dole out when they are online and behind a keyboard. When I was running the Alan Turing apology campaign in 2009 I received all sorts of hate in my inbox. I wasn't shocked by it because I've been using the Internet since 1986, but I was saddened.

mmgutz 11y ago
Are there any references to this abuse, harrassment and discrimination from the Golang community? I haven't seen it in my year working with Go. Seems like a pretty broad generalization.
- enneff 11y ago
  If you're not subject to it then you won't notice it. I have noticed because I've had it reported to me directly. I wasn't aware of it before then. Also it is not a "generalization". These are isolated incidents but they are harmful to the people involved.
- comrh 11y ago
  You need specific examples? Believing people when they say they are being harassed and have to deal with toxic people isn't enough?
pdeuchler 11y ago
As a group we humans are a pretty terrible bunch. History tends to confirm this pretty readily, the internet just gives us a much bigger megaphone

leereeves 11y ago

> I'm also concerned by reports of abuse, harassment, and discrimination in our community, particularly toward women and other underrepresented groups. Even I have experienced harassment and abuse myself. This may be common in the tech industry but it is not OK. I find it hard to imagine other professionals (doctors, lawyers, accountants, even other engineering disciplines) behaving like this. Is that a failure of imagination on my part or is IT/CS particularly toxic?

pekk 11y ago
This is a property of specific communities, not everyone who works with computers.
jackyb 11y ago
I think it's just because of internet. I bet they would be much nicer IRL. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
TallGuyShort 11y ago
It could be made worse by the anonymity that is common in our profession. There tend to be trolls in any online forum, regardless of interest, and much of the work in our profession is done via similar channels. And let's be honest, many of us (myself included) grew up hacking on computers instead of developing typical social skills. Some people grow out of that, some people grow into jerks. edit: one further thought, there are many cases where someone is a brilliant programmer precisely because they're borderline mentally ill, and that causes some social problems as well.
spikels 11y ago
If you think there is no "abuse, harassment, and discrimination" in the medical, legal, accounting and non-IT engineering professions, you are not paying attention. These are global human problems not restricted to IT/CS.
- leereeves 11y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that there is no "abuse, harassment, and discrimination" in other professions. Of course there are bad people in every field. But are there death threats, rape threats, doxxing, etc, against total strangers? Serious question. I just haven't heard of that, except perhaps in the military and police.

bsaul 11y ago

I'm amazed that an online group whose focus is to talk about a programming language thinks about adopting a code of conduct... I would have thought trying to keep the discussions about the programming language itself would be enough. Is it some kind of american / californian extreme sensitivity to heated debates or has there been a recent invasion of trolls i'm unaware of ?

enneff 11y ago
You'd hope so, but people are pretty bad at being civil on the Internet, in general.
scrollaway 11y ago
Both. American culture has created an image of "harrassment and discrimination" very specific to the US, so a lot of people tend to see it where there is none, and be blind to actual instances of it (The hilarious/sad debate on "discrimination" in the most recent Witcher game comes to mind. Feel free to google it, I will not fuel that fire). That said, online communities tend to very easily turn elitism into hostility, and hostility into hatefulness. Incredibly toxic. I'm not sure how a code of conduct helps - if you have to spell out to people that they shouldn't be hateful, there's a bigger problem at stake, and the code of conduct is just here to protect the community from wrongdoing, not hostile behaviour. But hey, it can't actually hurt to have one, so why not. I hope it helps, the cynic in me just doubts it will. Edit: I see any post discussing the nature of the CoC and not blindly saying "this is awesome! woohoo!" is getting downvoted quite heavily. That's pretty sad, and a great way to encourage people never to speak against the majority (in this case, there is a majority of americans on HN online at this hour). Think about that, for a moment.
coldtea 11y ago
>Is it some kind of american / californian extreme sensitivity to heated debates Yes, this pretty much nails it.
sanxiyn 11y ago
> I would have thought trying to keep the discussions about the programming language itself would be enough. This is actually quite tricky. Policing off-topic in IRC channel is harder than policing abuses. For a concrete example, Go discussion is often tolerated in #rust IRC channel and I think it should be, but "boobs or gtfo" should not be tolerated. I was actually in the channel when "boobs or gtfo" incident happened, and it was one of reasons for Rust to adopt a code of conduct.

agonzalezro 11y ago

Since the CoCs started to be a thing I always though that they were unnecessary because I growth with the mantra: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Said that, sadly, this doesn't seem to be a true statement in tech and a CoC doesn't hurt. I am ok with Go getting one if it's going to make people feel more welcomed on the community.

coldtea 11y ago
>"do unto others as you would have them do unto you". So a masochist can hit other people? I'm joking, but it shows a general issue with that motto: that what a person finds acceptable might not be what others want in a project. E.g. person X likes seeing cat pictures in HN, and wants other people to post cat pictures. But that doesn't mean that X posting cat pictures would be what the others want too.
- enneff 11y ago
  For once I actually agree with you, coldtea. It is not enough to rely on everyone's unique instincts and preferences. This is why we need a Code of Conduct.
- WoodenChair 11y ago
  You're taking a literal reading out of something that's not meant to be literal. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" means treat other people with respect and be nice to them because most people like to be respected and treated nicely. You're right it probably wasn't written 5000 years ago for the extreme case of a person who likes being treated badly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
  - mentat 11y ago
    Or you could just take the less imposing version and not do to others what you don't want done to yourself.
  - coldtea 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago

Is "you should, at every opportunity, declare how you can do useful work without generics, and that people asking for them haven't done any real work in Go" in there?

spotman 11y ago

Agree that mis-conduct on the internet is always in poor taste, and also agree that sometimes pointers can help people with some basic tips that make their quest to give or receive help more palatable. Having said that, I certainly hope that this does not become some sort of thing that people spend a lot of time worrying about, enforcing, or baby sitting others. For example, the sheer fact that a CoC could exist for go, may mean that people spend time policing rather than programming. Until reading this I was not aware Rust had a CoC. Can anyone comment on the process that was used to create this, and how its going? Is there recourse for someone that is out of line? Is there human energy spent on policing this? For me, programming languages shouldn't dictate CoC. However, I think it makes a lot more sense for communities to. So where do you draw the line between community and programming language? Obviously a programming language like C has no central community really. However with Rust and Go and some others there is main IRC channels and more. I just can't help but feel that the forum, IRC network, etc, should be responsible for the CoC. I don't like that Go could end up having a prescribed culture. Some of the most talented C programmers I know are edgy, intolerable people. I would hate for some of their work to get thrown out because they can't be relied on to have a sane discussion 1/2 the time. What can we really do as community to enforce it at the language level really? I can see someone being banned from a forum. But, what if they don't stop using Golang? Seems like something that is impossible to police.

enneff 11y ago
The success of Go depends on a healthy community. I am quite happy to lose some talented people if they can't play well with others.
- davecheney 11y ago
  > The success of Go depends on a healthy community. I am quite happy to lose some talented people if they can't play well with others. Hear! Hear!
- spotman 11y ago
  What prevents someone like linus torvalds from being kicked out for cussing at people? Would linux be where it is today? Those are the type of people I am referring to. Not racist people, for example. Now I understand that his issues are not the ones that are ultimately the goal of fixing here. But where do you draw the line? And is is the programming languages responsibility to police this? Where is the CoC for C anyways:) ?

daily_dose 11y ago

You can't control the way other people act, how delusional are you fools? Online communities have always self-regulated, let nature run its' course and stop interfering, it's pathetic.

gregors 11y ago

In other news people dealing with other people cause problems, see world history for more details.

anon3_ 11y ago

I'm sad to see more political correctness invading these circles. A few years ago, I was so happy to see a girl every now and then at our LUG. Me and the other guys were jumping over each other to help her. After years of seeing censorship and lives ruined over off-hand comments, I immediately see women instinctually view her as a risk. Is she a lawsuit? Is she going to report me for code of conduct violations when things don't go her way? Sure, the women may laugh at my jokes for a few months. But when I eventually tell her no for a reason based on her shortcomings, she can conveniently report me for revenge. Institionalizing political correctness breeds biases and hatred. It's a pressure cooker. You can't even criticize this stuff without being outed as a heretic.

sanswork 11y ago
It's not difficult to just treat people like normal humans. >Me and the other guys were jumping over each other to help her. This is an example of a problem where you think you're being helpful but all you're doing is separating someone from the group and probably harassing them. Were you and the other guys jumping over each other to help every guy that showed up? Why the women? Were you doing it because you were nice or because it was a woman and you hoped to get something in return? >Is she a lawsuit? Is she going to report me for code of conduct violations when things don't go her way? You talk about fear of criticizing this stuff but almost everyone who lives their lives in fear of a sexual discrimination lawsuit do so because they regularly act inappropriately around others. >Sure, the women may laugh at my jokes for a few months. But when I eventually tell her no for a reason based on her shortcomings, she can conveniently report me for revenge. Sure the woman may put up with your actions for a few months but everyone has a breaking point. Your whole post is about how sneaky and devious you see women as and how you fear for your safety due to these traits. You're like a self fulfilling prophecy. If you ever do end up involved in a lawsuit it likely won't be due to women in general being sneaky or seeking revenge it will likely be due to your belief that they act like that causing you to act negatively towards them.
- Rumford 11y ago
  > This is an example of a problem where you think you're being helpful but all you're doing is separating someone from the group and probably harassing them. Choosing to interpret clumsiness as "abuse" is EXACTLY the problem he's describing. If "jumping over each other to help her" is inappropriate, then someone needs to describe what is appropriate when the group is trying to go out of their way to welcome someone who isn't the group's usual demographic. It is not OK to label everything they do as abusive without explaining what your standard for good behavior would be. > Were you doing it because you were nice or because it was a woman and you hoped to get something in return? And then you accuse him of viewing all women with suspicion. Do you not see the hypocrisy? > Your whole post is about how sneaky and devious you see women as and how you fear for your safety due to these traits. Again, stupendously wrong. I think you're twisting his words this way on purpose and it turns my stomach that people are getting away with this. He's not complaining about "women" being "devious." He's complaining about the poisonous and paranoid culture that is created when certain groups have carte blanche to hang the scarlet letter of "Harassment" on you for God-only-knows what reason. There is no question we should treat people with respect. But whether they belong to some minority, or some supposedly aggrieved group, DOES NOT MATTER. A person is a person. Isn't that the goal of "equality"? If there's a way you need other people to act in order for you to feel comfortable, fine, you have every right to tell people what those boundaries of yours are. At the same time though, your comfort zone does not automatically obligate everyone around you to change.

ternaryoperator 11y ago

The problem with a Code of Conduct is that for it to have any meaning, it needs to be enforced--someone has to kick out repeat offenders, otherwise the code is just words. For this reason, having a code that reflects "what we aspire to," rather than "don't do this," is laudable, but probably not workable. At some point, I believe, you have to state consequences for specific actions.

nnethercote 11y ago

Good for them.

4ydx 11y ago

As long as it is only about trying to get people to think about what they are saying that seems ok, but I suspect it will only degrade into a pitchfork mob on most occasions. Really as others have suggested the only required "rule" is: talk about programming.