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In the situation of the shirt a reasonable reaction would be to not hijack the publicity earned by the Rosetta team and to deal with the issue once the mission

by hoopd 11y ago

In the situation of the shirt a reasonable reaction would be to not hijack the publicity earned by the Rosetta team and to deal with the issue once the mission was at a point where the lead scientist could be pulled aside to talk about his wardrobe choices. Benefit of the doubt means that you accept your own fallibility, not that you use weasel words and implications to communicate the outright accusations you're making. To be clear, the accusation was at best that this guy in his stupidity is responsible for the gender gap in science. If you're a jealous keyboard warrior that's even better than calling him aggressively sexist because now you get to call him stupid even though he's the one with a PhD in magnetohydrodynamcs and you barely got a communications degree. In your view of history women have entered science as the barriers of sexism have fallen so you believe fighting sexism is a Very Important Cause. But in the time period of science we've also had several major technological revolutions and science itself has drastically changed. That means you can't choose two signals and establish a cause-and-effect relationship between them. These days STEM fields are the only ones feminists get to complain about because women dominate education at almost every level except for STEM fields. But we don't talk about women being 60% of college students, we don't talk about young black men having a 50% high school graduation rate while their female counterparts are doing significantly better. Instead we talk about the STEM gap and if we resist we get shamed into public apologies? > If you have sincere questions (as opposed to argumentation in question form) I'm glad to answer. I'm not sure if you realize how condescending it is to assume that you have nothing to learn from me but this is a great opportunity for me to learn from you. It's a common point in these conversatins where the person I'm speaking to assumes I just don't understand their One True Worldview. Next you realize I do, after that you decide I'm too emotionally attached to my privilege to admit the truth. Then, if this were in person, the public shaming and social penalties would begin and wouldn't stop until I gave an unqualified apology and retracted all previous statements. > But as far as I'm concerned, that is good news.....I'm glad to live in an age where decreasing power imbalances mean a decrease in distorted communication. I look at this and I see hegemony[0]. A social group with a significant amount of power over you has publicly shamed you (call-outs are done in public for a reason) into at least one tearful apology and as a result their worldview became your own. There was a time the Left thought this was a tool of evil people, seeing it become business as usual has been....interesting. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony

wpietri 11y ago
> In the situation of the shirt a reasonable reaction [...] That's a fine claim to make, but I don't agree with your judgment of reasonable, and neither to a lot of other people. Your theory that we can make major cultural changes through polite, meek requests is... unproven: https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-peaceful-protest-history-44bdadb44cf https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-peaceful-protest-history... As Deborah Blum puts it, "I do have sympathy for anyone caught in the leading edge of a media storm. But if we are ever to effect change, sometimes we need the winds to howl, to blow us out of our comfort zones." > the accusation was at best that this guy in his stupidity is responsible for the gender gap in science I believe the actual accusation was that he was contributing to maintaining the gender gap, not that he was responsible for it. > we don't talk about young black men having a 50% high school graduation rate while their female counterparts are doing significantly better Actually, intersectional feminists talk about this quite a bit. They just don't think the solution is to stop fighting sexism. > Instead we talk about the STEM gap and if we resist we get shamed into public apologies? Yes, all this middle aged white dude resistance to a dollop of accountability for one's actions is really about helping black men. Now pull the other leg. > I'm not sure if you realize how condescending it is to assume that you have nothing to learn from me but this is a great opportunity for me to learn from you. I don't mind as being seen as condescending here, but that's not my point. My point is that I have limited time, and I don't think spending it rehashing stale arguments with dedicated antifeminists is a good way to work towards the goals I have. If somebody actually wants to learn something, I'm glad to help them out. And if I end up with questions, I'll surely ask them. But absent that, I have better things to do. > I look at this and I see hegemony[0]. Yes. There was an entrenched pro-sexist cultural hegemony that has lasted thousands of years. It is finally dying. I want that replaced with an anti-sexist cultural hegemony, because that shifts us in the direction of a more even distribution of power. I personally hope that what comes after that is the dissolution of hegemonies, but primates being what we are, I suspect the best we'll be able to get is an anti-kyriarchic hegemony. My target for that is 2100, but I've always been an optimist. > A social group with a significant amount of power over you has publicly shamed you [...] This is an incorrect reading (and also false), but hey, don't let me get in the way of your fantasies. > their worldview became your own Also false. I'm not much of a fellow traveler in that I have a number of deep philosophical disagreements, but our goals are aligned for the next few decades or so.

by hoopd 11y ago

wpietri 11y ago

> In the situation of the shirt a reasonable reaction [...] That's a fine claim to make, but I don't agree with your judgment of reasonable, and neither to a lot of other people. Your theory that we can make major cultural changes through polite, meek requests is... unproven: https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-peaceful-protest-history-44bdadb44cf https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-peaceful-protest-history... As Deborah Blum puts it, "I do have sympathy for anyone caught in the leading edge of a media storm. But if we are ever to effect change, sometimes we need the winds to howl, to blow us out of our comfort zones." > the accusation was at best that this guy in his stupidity is responsible for the gender gap in science I believe the actual accusation was that he was contributing to maintaining the gender gap, not that he was responsible for it. > we don't talk about young black men having a 50% high school graduation rate while their female counterparts are doing significantly better Actually, intersectional feminists talk about this quite a bit. They just don't think the solution is to stop fighting sexism. > Instead we talk about the STEM gap and if we resist we get shamed into public apologies? Yes, all this middle aged white dude resistance to a dollop of accountability for one's actions is really about helping black men. Now pull the other leg. > I'm not sure if you realize how condescending it is to assume that you have nothing to learn from me but this is a great opportunity for me to learn from you. I don't mind as being seen as condescending here, but that's not my point. My point is that I have limited time, and I don't think spending it rehashing stale arguments with dedicated antifeminists is a good way to work towards the goals I have. If somebody actually wants to learn something, I'm glad to help them out. And if I end up with questions, I'll surely ask them. But absent that, I have better things to do. > I look at this and I see hegemony[0]. Yes. There was an entrenched pro-sexist cultural hegemony that has lasted thousands of years. It is finally dying. I want that replaced with an anti-sexist cultural hegemony, because that shifts us in the direction of a more even distribution of power. I personally hope that what comes after that is the dissolution of hegemonies, but primates being what we are, I suspect the best we'll be able to get is an anti-kyriarchic hegemony. My target for that is 2100, but I've always been an optimist. > A social group with a significant amount of power over you has publicly shamed you [...] This is an incorrect reading (and also false), but hey, don't let me get in the way of your fantasies. > their worldview became your own Also false. I'm not much of a fellow traveler in that I have a number of deep philosophical disagreements, but our goals are aligned for the next few decades or so.