4 ms·

I don't really think they are obligated to describe to you how they make the sausage. As long as the end result is what you paid for, does it really matter if

by brk 17y ago

I don't really think they are obligated to describe to you how they make the sausage. As long as the end result is what you paid for, does it really matter if they employ trained professionals, or monkeys with notepad.exe?

mcantor 17y ago
I agree, but I think the firm should have just covered all their bases and given her an e-mail at their domain.
- brk 17y ago
  Then if it was later discovered that the freelancer wasn't a "real" employee they would be accused of misrepresentation as well. I think that the approach they took was correct, they did not attempt to hide, or call attention to, what exactly the freelancers tax status was. They could have hired this freelancer the day before as a permanent employee, with an honest for-real @designfirm.com email address and the OP would have been perfectly happy (assuming the outcome as acceptable). This is a mostly a matter of getting worked up over the formality of which logo is on the paycheck.
  - tboxer854 17y ago
    Her email address was not out in the open. It took some digging through basecamp for me to figure it out. My main issue was that I looked through the portfolio of the person they were going to have to do it and she wasn't any good. I also didn't really think it was worth letting her attempt to do it and then fighting them at the end of I wasn't happy.
    - brk 17y ago
      Ahh. Interesting bit of clarification. In either case, it's hard to argue as everything is theoretical at this point. Maybe they could not have justified taking on your project at all if they didn't farm it out to this freelancer. So, for your budget (and I'm way over simplifying here) you could have gone elsewhere and gotten work more or less of the caliber of this person working through a lesser firm, or gone to this name-brand firm where the work would not have been done by an a-lister, but the project management and creative oversight would have been handled by them. Theoretically, they would have ensured an outcome on-par with their reputation, even if they potentially had to do some internal re-work if her output wasn't up to snuff. This sounds, to me, like the scenario where the design firm was trying to expand their business a little bit and was doing so on a trial basis, with you and her both effectively as guinea pigs. I've seen this work really well and really poorly. If their signature is at the point where it can be easily reproduced under guidance, then you missed a good opportunity. If their style cannot be implemented by anyone other than these 4 or 5 people, you got lucky. If I had to flip a coin though, I'm guessing you gave up a good opportunity here...
    - gte910h 17y ago
      You'd be surprised what people with any talent at all can do under the thumb of their betters. I'm with the other responder thinking you likely just missed out.
teej 17y ago
It's definitely important to know what kind of talent is behind your design project. If I'm paying $30/hr for a small project, I would expect it to be handled by a junior person. But if I'm shelling out $175/hr to the same firm for a larger project, I sure as hell better have their best creative minds on it. Setting explicitly clear expectations is an important part of client work.
- brk 17y ago
  Depends on which talent you're REALLY hiring and concerned with. Are you hiring the director/producer, or the staff. Provided that the project got proper oversight and herding by the creative director, it does not really matter, IMO, who writes the HTML and diddles the Photoshop buttons.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    I've worked with 1-person shops and with large, well known firms, and this notion that creative directors are calling the shots on projects doesn't square with my experience. The person who's performance you care about is the one giving you comps and taking your feedback on them; in firms with "directors", that person is almost never the director.
tptacek 17y ago
Even if you don't have the "no unapproved subs" clause in your contract --- which, put it there --- it's still a marketplace, and not knowing who's going to staff your project, or even that they're FT employees, is a major misfeature of a consulting firm. Nobody owes "working on crappy terms" to any consulting firm. Pick one you trust.

by brk 17y ago

mcantor 17y ago

I agree, but I think the firm should have just covered all their bases and given her an e-mail at their domain.

brk 17y ago
Then if it was later discovered that the freelancer wasn't a "real" employee they would be accused of misrepresentation as well. I think that the approach they took was correct, they did not attempt to hide, or call attention to, what exactly the freelancers tax status was. They could have hired this freelancer the day before as a permanent employee, with an honest for-real @designfirm.com email address and the OP would have been perfectly happy (assuming the outcome as acceptable). This is a mostly a matter of getting worked up over the formality of which logo is on the paycheck.
- tboxer854 17y ago
  Her email address was not out in the open. It took some digging through basecamp for me to figure it out. My main issue was that I looked through the portfolio of the person they were going to have to do it and she wasn't any good. I also didn't really think it was worth letting her attempt to do it and then fighting them at the end of I wasn't happy.
  - brk 17y ago
    Ahh. Interesting bit of clarification. In either case, it's hard to argue as everything is theoretical at this point. Maybe they could not have justified taking on your project at all if they didn't farm it out to this freelancer. So, for your budget (and I'm way over simplifying here) you could have gone elsewhere and gotten work more or less of the caliber of this person working through a lesser firm, or gone to this name-brand firm where the work would not have been done by an a-lister, but the project management and creative oversight would have been handled by them. Theoretically, they would have ensured an outcome on-par with their reputation, even if they potentially had to do some internal re-work if her output wasn't up to snuff. This sounds, to me, like the scenario where the design firm was trying to expand their business a little bit and was doing so on a trial basis, with you and her both effectively as guinea pigs. I've seen this work really well and really poorly. If their signature is at the point where it can be easily reproduced under guidance, then you missed a good opportunity. If their style cannot be implemented by anyone other than these 4 or 5 people, you got lucky. If I had to flip a coin though, I'm guessing you gave up a good opportunity here...
  - gte910h 17y ago
    You'd be surprised what people with any talent at all can do under the thumb of their betters. I'm with the other responder thinking you likely just missed out.

teej 17y ago

It's definitely important to know what kind of talent is behind your design project. If I'm paying $30/hr for a small project, I would expect it to be handled by a junior person. But if I'm shelling out $175/hr to the same firm for a larger project, I sure as hell better have their best creative minds on it. Setting explicitly clear expectations is an important part of client work.

brk 17y ago
Depends on which talent you're REALLY hiring and concerned with. Are you hiring the director/producer, or the staff. Provided that the project got proper oversight and herding by the creative director, it does not really matter, IMO, who writes the HTML and diddles the Photoshop buttons.
- tptacek 17y ago
  I've worked with 1-person shops and with large, well known firms, and this notion that creative directors are calling the shots on projects doesn't square with my experience. The person who's performance you care about is the one giving you comps and taking your feedback on them; in firms with "directors", that person is almost never the director.

tptacek 17y ago

Even if you don't have the "no unapproved subs" clause in your contract --- which, put it there --- it's still a marketplace, and not knowing who's going to staff your project, or even that they're FT employees, is a major misfeature of a consulting firm. Nobody owes "working on crappy terms" to any consulting firm. Pick one you trust.