7 ms·
Ask HN: How do you deal with overly confident people?
I studied math in college. I've been working in Tech ever since. I am always careful not to argue for/against something unless I am absolutely certain.
Most of my career has been spent in developing software for Sales Ops departments of large companies and start ups. Personalities in this space (sales) tend to be the boisterous, loud, outspoken type. Even when they aren't sure, they speak so assertively that they easily sway other people's opinion, sometimes even my own.
Often, however, it turns out they were wrong, and without coming across as boastful that I was actually right or at least on the right path.
The problem is I never know this at the moment the conversation is taking place, it's usually after I take more time to think about it. How do you deal with this? Do I just have to turn it up a notch? Do I call them out and tell them to revisit the subject?
Curious to see how other engineer/tech peeps deal with this situation.
- bhsiao 11y agoI tend to find that in good environments it's not at all weird to call people out on things that happened a few weeks or even months ago if they were wrong. Anyone who cares about truth should welcome it. If people around you are the obnoxious kind who win arguments through charisma and aren't willing to revisit things in light of truth, it might be time to switch people.
- jcroll 11y agoWell if you always end up being right are you not becoming more confident in your assertions?
- bhsiao 11y agoI don't think that's it. He says he tends to arrive at right answers after long and careful thought while people around him jump into conclusions and force them forward.
- jcroll 11y agoThere's no magic bullet for confidence. You can try faking it till you make it. Ultimately good work will lead to confidence. If a bunch of boisterous sales guys were constantly "alphaing" me with erroneous solutions and I knew with some thought I could come up with something better I know I would start to gain confidence through that process.
- arsenide 11y agoThe distinction lies in the difference between being confident and acting confident.
- wrd 11y agoI'm a similar way in that I don't like to say something unless I'm pretty sure of it. When the loud, boisterous, assertive types try to push something on me I'll either question them a lot to test the depth of their knowledge or I'll just flat out tell them, "I'm not able to evaluate what you're saying since I don't know anything about it." When said with a bit of edge it's a great conversation stopper ;)
- jdavis703 11y agoYou have to alter the rules of the game to match your playing style. If you need to slowly deliberate over an issue for example, then don't agree to anything just because you feel outwitted in the moment. You can always buy time by saying something like: "that's a great a point, give me an hour to think about its broader implications."
- solutionyogi 11y agoThis. One thing which seems obvious to me now but wasn't earlier that we are software professionals and not fire fighters or professional athletes. When you are a fire fighter or an athlete in a high pressure game, you need to make a decision there and then. This is not true of a while collar workplace. If you are not sure, buy time. No one is going to object to that. Even better, move conversation to email where you can share links to facts supporting your argument. In fact, senior people appreciate that you do proper due diligence before making a decision.
- TheBiv 11y agoWhat I typically do is start "leading the witness" by asking genuinely objective questions. Genuine is the key there. You can never beat a boisterous person by being a prick with belittling or subjective questions. However, if you stick with concrete questions and examples then I have found it tends to disarm overly confident people! This typically does two things: it exposes any subjective thoughts that have led them to being overconfident about the issue at hand and it actually helps to foster a relationship between them and myself bc it shows that I am legitimately trying to understand where they are coming from.
- graedus 11y agoExcellent advice. I've learned to do this over time and it's really been a win-win approach.
- baldfat 11y agoI am a loud persuasive person. I have something that works to keep myself checked and also stop people making false arguements. I proclaim "What does the Interwebs say?" Seriously in our pockets we have the answers to any question that has one. I look it up and proclaim the actual fact, if there is one. Sometimes I proclaim, "I'm a complete idiot" (Happens on IRC the most for me) or hmm seems like we have a different answer. Then it is up to them to argue against what you looked up and it takes it off of you. Funny thing is my kids growing up groaned when I did that to them. Now they do it all the time now that they are in their 20s.
- ismail 11y agoThis works for facts and general knowledge. However I would say that for really difficult questions there is no option to Google. In my experience these come up in business. There are no right or wrong answers just heuristics and past experience.
- ismail 11y agoThis works for facts and general knowledge. However I would say that for really difficult questions there is no option to Google. In my experience these come up in business. There are no right or wrong answers just heuristics and past experience.
- moron4hire 11y ago>> I am always careful not to argue for/against something unless I am absolutely certain. You have got to stop doing that. Argue for something then make it certain. If it's wrong, admit it and move on. Get better about estimating the rightness of things. But if you ever want to be in control, you really need to drive conversations, and you don't do that by arguing from a standpoint of certainty.
- BurningFrog 11y agoYeah, being silent when you're only 99% sure is not helping your organization. It's mostly a way to cover your ass. If you're not 100% sure, don't pretend to be, but for gods sake, help out my stating your thoughts.
- harkyns_castle 11y agoYou sound hesitant and not confident of your own ability. Personally, the first thing I'd do is remove myself from people like that. What a painful way to live - there are a hundred other different environments. If you feel like you need to be there, you probably have already realized it - they are full of shit - that is sales. Most sales people are confidence tricksters, they spin bullshit. You have a potent weapon, a brain. Use it, whip them down. They're generally morons, with confidence. But, I would say get out of the environment.
- bakhy 11y agoMaybe not look at it like who was right or who was wrong, but rather who is responsible for what. Your responsibility is definitely to disclose any issues you believe may impede a project. If it's their responsibility, however, to reach a final decision, then, after you have voiced the new information, remember to respect whatever they decide. It's their ass on the line if it fails. You did your part. So, in general, never focus on who was right and who was wrong, rather focus on the common goal. PS Overly confident people are in reality typically really scared of being wrong. Be gentle ;)
- return0 11y agoTypical dunning-kruger effect at work. Communicate your arguments in written form, through email.
- naturalethic 11y agoIf you find yourself in a defensive posture when dealing with people with huge egos, look inward and deal with your own.
- maratd 11y agoI think your entire post is a fine example of why you're having difficulty dealing with "sales guys". How to deal with "overly confident" people? You mean assholes? Because when a person is "overly confident" about something they know very little about, that's the definition of an asshole. And there are a lot of assholes in sales. Being an asshole in sales makes you successful. Nobody wants to sign a contract with someone who's not sure of what they're doing. The key characteristic of an asshole is "fake it til you make it". In other words, act confident in a field even if you know absolutely nothing about it until you do know something about it. The best way to deal with someone who's faking it is to simply call them out on it. But doing that is a bit of an art. Rather than simply pissing them off, guide them to the right conclusion. Even though they're "faking it", they still do want to learn how to do it right, even if they will never admit it. Him: "This button should be over here." You: "Ok, I like your idea, but what if X and X happens. We should add what you said, but do it here." Compliment them. Tear them down. Suggest a better alternative, incorporating some minor insignificant part of their original idea. Keep repeating until you get the desired outcome.
- lgunsch 11y agoI have this issue too. You explained it fairly well. I don't know if this is the right solution or not, but I have just tried to be a little more assertive. Obviously not to the extent that your coworkers are. I have heard that you can get people to challenge their own viewpoint (at least on technical matters) by carefully asking questions. This will also help you to figure things out for yourself too.
- dataker 11y agoWith these individuals, I'd avoid being blatantly honest and objective. Even if you helped them, they tend to take it personally and undermine your relationships. So, whenever they're wrong, I show them I have a completely different background/side("the guy who knows math") and make them conclude something without directly saying it( using indirect questions maybe). With that, they "were not wrong" (their nightmare) and you just helped them come to the right conclusion("like always").
- stray 11y agoI ask them to walk me through it to make sure I fully understand the issue -- because I'm clearly missing something important. Sometimes I am missing something important. But either way, framing it as if they know something you don't will usually lead to the right answer without an overt confrontation.
- onthedole 11y agoLearn to draw. As you said you need more time to think about it. You need to do it during the meeting as the opportunity to argue your point may be lost afterwards. I think the best thing is to help you understand and clearly see the points you can argue and provide a good cost/benefit analysis. By drawing/sketching you make it easier for you to visualise all the points and then make a solid counter argument. You also gain some time to think about the problem. You should be then able to articulate your position in a few short clear statements that everyone in the meeting can remember and even the note take can easily jot down an email everyone later I would then use a whiteboard if available or even a marker and an A3 sheet will do.
- tvm 11y agoThere are better things to do than arguing or trying change opinion of people that are confident in their ignorance. It's like arguing on the internet. If that's not your thing, I would try to change workplace.
- davemel37 11y agoThis. Unless it impacts a major decision. The mind is like wet cement...once it forms an opinion it is almost impossible to change it. Especially because the folks you are referring to don't sound very open minded. You have to realize that Changing your mind takes energy and effort...you need them to want to exert effort or you will be talking to a wall. Save yourself the trouble unless it impact something really important...in which case the first guys advice (ask questions) with an emphasis on genuine is your best bet.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- suttree 11y agoDealing with overly confident people = learning how to clean up the mess when it goes wrong, because it's hard to to win once things turn into a persuade-off. Do anything and everything you can to slow the conversation down, to give yourself time to think, to delay decisions, and never be afraid to change your mind once the dust settles. Sure, it pisses people off, but at the same time it takes guts to go back and say "no, we got it wrong". Decisions don't have to be final until you're happy with them.
- mgrassotti 11y agoMy way of dealing with overconfident people is the best ever. In fact, I am awesome at dealing with every kind person that is or ever was. If dealing with people was an olympic event I would win gold silver and bronze every 4 years. I can't tell you about my way of dealing overconfident people because I don't want to brag. I'm the most modest person you'll ever f-ing meet. Way more modest than you or anyone else on this forum.
- drewnichols1974 11y agoFuck that. I'm way fucking more modest than you are.
- wcummings 11y ago>Ask HN: How do I talk to people?
- damoncali 11y agoDon't be so afraid of being wrong. You'll never get anything done being right all the time.
- silverbax88 11y agoI can only tell you what I did. I studied them and learned to be better at their game than they were, and I also had the fact that I actually know what I'm talking about. It took years. See, the idea is that sales is about people wanting you on their side - they want you in their corner, and want to believe your going to fix everything with magic. Nobody wants to be responsible for anything, nobody wants to really work or actually have knowledge, they just want to relax and make money - and have everyone think they are the smartest guy in the room. A good salesman makes everyone believe they have the answer to every question...a great salesman actually does have the answer to every question. I can be funny, I can be authoritative, I can be sarcastic. Throw me into a room of guys who think they are sharks and I'll turn them into minnows. Throw me into a room full of Fortune 50 CEOs and I'll make them know they need my advice because I build bullets, not blanks. Always know that business is about one thing: money. Either making more or losing less. It's all about communicating. Turns out it pays well, too.
- dmvaldman 11y agoHmm.. could you be the overly confident person the OP is talking about? Nice to meet you.
- silverbax88 11y agoI seriously doubt it. I work in code so every day is a humbling experience in how much I don't know, and should. The point is understanding people don't want truth, they want magic. Your job is to make truth and sell it like magic. See, the other guys just have magic, and it's most likely fake magic. Your magic works. This is why I always say IT guys should focus on being much better communicators. It doesn't matter if you're right when nobody believes you. But if you're right and everybody believes you? Then you can get a lot done in a company.
- vorador 11y agoHow did you get better at it? Did you move to a sales role?
- mpdehaan2 11y agoIt might not entirely help, but ... be ok with it. I wouldn't hold it against people that think faster in some situations, as they may actually be right. Calling them "wrong" is difficult, and wrong is often a gray area. Communication is vital and it needs to happen fast in a lot of scenarios. Those that overcommunicate and lead probably will get ahead even if they are wrong sometimes. But everybody's wrong from time to time, even someone's carefully-deliberated points have holes. In fact, it's probably true that nothing is ever 100% correct. So many debates in tech circles come from these mathematical constructions set out to prove someone's idea isn't perfect or they are doing it wrong. The truth is, nothing is ever perfect, and is bounded by compromise, ideals, lots of intangibles, and available inputs. Basically, tech is easiest when everyone drops their ego about being wrong and just seeks to find the best answer. Voice questions when you have them, ask for clarification when you need to, find compromises when you can. This is also very hard if you're jockeying for status, wanting more control of something, wanting a new architecture or project to succeed. Kind of in the "desire leads to suffering" vein, you have to sort of drop that desire and focus on the actual present at that very instant. This can be a problem when you have inexperienced people making decisions, or when, say, a product side of the house doesn't do good homework and can't achieve good product/market fit. From the tech side, trying to fix the business side and seeing gaps in it is incredibly rough. If they are clearly incorrect in your eyes, this is a point where you need to debate merits, not speaking styles, and genuinely want to compromise and help both sides of the equation (Nash Equilibrium) versus trying to win the argument. That's something that gets immediately picked up on by the other side of the table. If you have a question later, raising it later is ok. Often better if you can ask someone directly than attempt to argue it over email, in many cases, as that can create a us-vs-them scenario. It's important to make sure you're both in it to choose the right answer. Much of the conflict of tech is when two parties have conflicting goals, i.e. someone wants to make a good architecture, someone else wants to win some key accounts and improve something later, and then build up walls where they don't like talking to each other. The problem occurs when someone is unwilling to accept new data and reform conclusions, or when folks are unable to compromise, more so than if someone is, per se, acting confident. It's also a lot easier to be confident when you can admit what you don't know, and only really go to the mat for the parts you really believe in. Having to defend a losing side of a decision is incredibly hard, so it's best to not play that game. If faced with conflicting priorities or ideas, sometimes it's best if you can just list out the tradeoffs and then raise the question "which one of these things/aspects is most important?" or trying to get an outside party to set priorities. Tech is hard because there's so much art/craftsmanship/opinion mixed in versus just getting the work done, and few standards. And lots of different ways to solve the same problems, and limited time so not all problems can be solved immediately. As the folks on the other side of the table are human, be careful of walls forming. Once you get into a situation where you don't like talking to them, and you or them are woried about being "wrong" and vice versa, it's very difficult to repair.
- BurningFrog 11y agoDepends on the situation. If it's just social talk, enjoy their energy and life force. These people can be truly magnetic personalities. If it's about making real important decisions, questions like "How do you know?", "What's the evidence for that?" can be useful. "I'll have to look into X/think about Y before deciding" is another good line to have ready. Is the problem that you are actually swayed by their confidence, or that you don't know how to formulate a response in a live meeting?
- CPLX 11y agoI have no idea what the answer to your question is but I am certain that it's not a big deal and that I could handle it if I were in your position.
- squigs25 11y agoOn a tangent, why is this problem soooo pervasive? I would say the large majority of people I work with fall into the over-confidence bucket. Perhaps it's that people in tech are smart, and usually right when they find themselves in an argument. Perhaps it's that the hiring process at many companies favors those who display egregious confidence.
- j_baker 11y agoI think a lot of tech workers are used to being the smartest person in class. When they come to SV and work with lots of other smartest people in class, it can cause egos to clash.
- serve_yay 11y agoPeople are always dumber than they think they are, remember that. It's best if you can keep your cool and ask questions that dismantle the premise without seeming like you have an agenda. (Yes, it's unfair that you have to do this. Deal.) Questions that others are suggesting like "what's your evidence for that?" are way too pointed to say directly in a business setting. Sadly, it's better to be less direct than that. Frame your questions as if you were learning rather than challenging a viewpoint (which is what you're actually doing). A book like "Games People Play" (Eric Berne) may help with this.
- ratsimihah 11y agoThe truth tends to always come out, so make your point, make sure the people who needs to hear it hear it, and let the others believe what they want. Just keep quiet and humble, and when the truth comes out and they realize it, watch and savor. No "I told you so" and such, just watch and savor. On the one hand, it's hard to keep quiet when you think you're right, but on the other hand, it actually takes less effort than trying to convince a fool.
- waffle_ss 11y agoThe best way to deal with these types is Socratic questioning. When they make a dubious claim, you continually ask "why?" until you uncover the leaps of logic that they've made without backing evidence. This worked extremely well on a coworker who genuinely was a nice guy and meant well, but was prone to making these unfounded assumptions. He was the type that would get a production error report and rather than calmly follow the stacktrace, would jump to a guess as to what triggered it. Simply by saying "why do you think X caused the error?" and suggesting "why couldn't it be <other part of system mentioned in stacktrace> causing it?" would force him to confront the evidence and rethink his process. Sadly he also had a habit of blustering on higher-level things to management, which eventually caught up to him when risky guesses didn't pan out enough times and management labeled him as a bullshitter.
- j_baker 11y agoWith very confident people, flattery will get you everywhere. They have to see things your way because they're so smart. Even better is to convince them that what you're trying to tell them is really their idea. If it comes from them, it can't be wrong, can it? Though if you find yourself working with enough of this type of person for it to be a problem, I would question whether you're working in the right place.
- geoffbrown 11y agoYou wont change them or their behavior. So, learn to protect yourself from their failure as much as possible. Then as soon as you can, find a work environment that is better suited to your temperament and personality. Also it can help to take note of the justice of karma acting on their lives.
- Kluny 11y agoJust keep on asking questions - "Maybe I've missed something - can you run that by me one more time? No, I'm still not getting it, are you sure you're not leaving anything out? Well that doesn't exactly make sense, what about xyz? Whoa, back up, I'm a little slow buddy, you're going way too fast for me. One more time?" You do have to be pretty loud when doing this, because people will get frustrated with you and be like "Nevermind, everyone else gets it, lets go". At that point you really have to insist. But logical flaws will quickly become obvious.
- ashleyp 11y agoSounds like they have a lack of awareness rather than being overconfident. Can a person be too confident?