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> The U.S. market size for palm oil is 2.6 billion pounds (1.2 billion kilograms) annually, he said. He expects that to increase by half a billion pounds a year

by cowpig 11y ago

> The U.S. market size for palm oil is 2.6 billion pounds (1.2 billion kilograms) annually, he said. He expects that to increase by half a billion pounds a year once trans fats are eliminated. This is really, really bad news. http://www.saynotopalmoil.com/Whats_the_issue.php http://www.saynotopalmoil.com/Whats_the_issue.php

arbitrage 11y ago
Do you have any impartial sources on the subject? www.saynotopalmoil.com doesn't seem entirely objective in the matter.
- baldfat 11y ago
  WWF? http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/palm_oil/environmental_impacts/ http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/palm_o...
- kylecesmat 11y ago
  A quick google search on the matter will reveal many sources. Though not the most professional news syndicate, VICE ran a great story a few months ago on the environmental impacts of palm oil in Indonesia. https://news.vice.com/article/indonesia-is-killing-the-planet-for-palm-oil https://news.vice.com/article/indonesia-is-killing-the-plane...
  - uptown 11y ago
    Seconded this. VICE's episode is well worth watching.
- ptx 11y ago
  National Geographic: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141009-orangutans-palm-oil-malaysia-indonesia-tigers-rhinos/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141009-orang...
bottled_poe 11y ago
The difference being that this transfers the cost outside of the US economy.
acaloiar 11y ago
To select just one of their arguments--that palm oil's production results in deforestation/climate change--one can make the same sort of argument about nearly any industry. E.g. if solar power companies of the future were to deforest mass swaths of land to make way for large solar farms, then one might argue that the solar industry contributes to climate change. It's a poor argument because the production of solar energy in no way necessitates deforestation; similarly palm oil production does not necessitate deforestation, animal cruelty, and non-sustainable production methods. I'm not arguing for or against palm oil. I know virtually nothing about palm oil; I'm simply criticizing the source.
- samastur 11y ago
  Borneo used to be covered in forest that was home to one of richest habitats in the world. If you fly over Malaysian part of Borneo now (don't know about Indonesia since I wasn't there, but apparently it is following Malaysian lead), you will see palm plantations for miles and almost no old forest. There is stil some forest left for orangutans and other endangered species, but it is under constant pressure from expanding plantations.
- kokey 11y ago
  Currently the biggest pressure on demand for palm oil is for biofuels. The result has been a significant recent and planned expansion of palm oil plantations in Indonesia and Malaysia. It doesn't help that many countries now have a mandatory biofuel component. I think the potential increase in demand for replacing trans fat is probably not that big compared to what comes as a result of demand for biodiesel.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I guess we should ramp up electric vehicle production to eliminate the need for those biofuels.
  - LordKano 11y ago
    I haven't checked the chemistry but I do have a question. Can the oils that we're currently hydrogenating be used for biofuel production?
furyg3 11y ago
The deforestation has to stop, I've traveled in Indonesia both personally and professionally and have seen the devastation that illegal (but government tolerated) deforestation causes. At the same time abandoning palm oil is both extremely impractical and causes numerous other sustainability problems. Palm oil has incredibly high yields per hectare when compared with other oil crops, which is important to consider when discussing it's 'sustainability'. It's yeilds are something like 3-5 tons per hectare per year, while soy/sunflower/others are less than 1 ton/ha/yr. Not to mention the human impact, it's a cash crop for many small holders who's livelihood depends on it. For these reasons, even very vocal environmental organizations like GreenPeace stop short of calling for boycotts... the focus needs to be on producing it sustainably. Consumers need to demand that the palm oil in their products is sustainably produced e.g. via the Round Table on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO) or otherwise. Unfortunately even knowing if palm oil is in your product or not has been difficult, and even brands who use sustainably produced palm oil are hesitant to draw attention to the the oil in their products. I've worked closely with this program on technical projects, and while it certainly has a number of flaws, the accountably is much higher than for conventional palm oil. I'm really hopeful that research into other methods (Algae oil production) will be more economical/efficient/sustainable, but at the moment it's still theoretical. :(
- cowpig 11y ago
  It sounds like you are well-informed on this issue. I'd like to ask you more about it but I can't seem to find any kind of private messaging functionality on HN and you don't have an email address in your profile :O
  - CONTRARlAN 11y ago
    Please ask him more here, so we can all benefit from the discussion.
    - cowpig 11y ago
      I work for a global campaigning/petitioning organization and one of our focuses is climate change. I'm wondering who the key players are, what is currently being done, whether there's opportunity for public pressure to influence any of the actors, etc.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
baddox 11y ago
Also, if you're cynical like me, then the palm oil industry might be a good place to start looking for why these regulations were created.
CyberDildonics 11y ago
Trans fat is really bad news. It is a preservative that is hugely detrimental to health. Palm oil is separate and deforestation is a separate problem from that. Keeping something that hurts people legal because another country is destroying forests is not a workable plan. Indonesia needs to be dealt with separate from the issue of trans fats.
- free2rhyme214 11y ago
  Bingo.
hellbanner 11y ago
Got any other sites on the sustainability of foods? (or a website of your company?)
pbreit 11y ago
Phew! I thought that was going to say palm oil is unhealthy. All the stuff listed on that page is improvable.

by cowpig 11y ago

arbitrage 11y ago

Do you have any impartial sources on the subject? www.saynotopalmoil.com doesn't seem entirely objective in the matter.

baldfat 11y ago
WWF? http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/palm_oil/environmental_impacts/ http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/palm_o...
kylecesmat 11y ago
A quick google search on the matter will reveal many sources. Though not the most professional news syndicate, VICE ran a great story a few months ago on the environmental impacts of palm oil in Indonesia. https://news.vice.com/article/indonesia-is-killing-the-planet-for-palm-oil https://news.vice.com/article/indonesia-is-killing-the-plane...
- uptown 11y ago
  Seconded this. VICE's episode is well worth watching.
ptx 11y ago
National Geographic: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141009-orangutans-palm-oil-malaysia-indonesia-tigers-rhinos/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141009-orang...

bottled_poe 11y ago

The difference being that this transfers the cost outside of the US economy.

acaloiar 11y ago

To select just one of their arguments--that palm oil's production results in deforestation/climate change--one can make the same sort of argument about nearly any industry. E.g. if solar power companies of the future were to deforest mass swaths of land to make way for large solar farms, then one might argue that the solar industry contributes to climate change. It's a poor argument because the production of solar energy in no way necessitates deforestation; similarly palm oil production does not necessitate deforestation, animal cruelty, and non-sustainable production methods. I'm not arguing for or against palm oil. I know virtually nothing about palm oil; I'm simply criticizing the source.

samastur 11y ago
Borneo used to be covered in forest that was home to one of richest habitats in the world. If you fly over Malaysian part of Borneo now (don't know about Indonesia since I wasn't there, but apparently it is following Malaysian lead), you will see palm plantations for miles and almost no old forest. There is stil some forest left for orangutans and other endangered species, but it is under constant pressure from expanding plantations.
kokey 11y ago
Currently the biggest pressure on demand for palm oil is for biofuels. The result has been a significant recent and planned expansion of palm oil plantations in Indonesia and Malaysia. It doesn't help that many countries now have a mandatory biofuel component. I think the potential increase in demand for replacing trans fat is probably not that big compared to what comes as a result of demand for biodiesel.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  I guess we should ramp up electric vehicle production to eliminate the need for those biofuels.
- LordKano 11y ago
  I haven't checked the chemistry but I do have a question. Can the oils that we're currently hydrogenating be used for biofuel production?

furyg3 11y ago

The deforestation has to stop, I've traveled in Indonesia both personally and professionally and have seen the devastation that illegal (but government tolerated) deforestation causes. At the same time abandoning palm oil is both extremely impractical and causes numerous other sustainability problems. Palm oil has incredibly high yields per hectare when compared with other oil crops, which is important to consider when discussing it's 'sustainability'. It's yeilds are something like 3-5 tons per hectare per year, while soy/sunflower/others are less than 1 ton/ha/yr. Not to mention the human impact, it's a cash crop for many small holders who's livelihood depends on it. For these reasons, even very vocal environmental organizations like GreenPeace stop short of calling for boycotts... the focus needs to be on producing it sustainably. Consumers need to demand that the palm oil in their products is sustainably produced e.g. via the Round Table on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO) or otherwise. Unfortunately even knowing if palm oil is in your product or not has been difficult, and even brands who use sustainably produced palm oil are hesitant to draw attention to the the oil in their products. I've worked closely with this program on technical projects, and while it certainly has a number of flaws, the accountably is much higher than for conventional palm oil. I'm really hopeful that research into other methods (Algae oil production) will be more economical/efficient/sustainable, but at the moment it's still theoretical. :(

cowpig 11y ago
It sounds like you are well-informed on this issue. I'd like to ask you more about it but I can't seem to find any kind of private messaging functionality on HN and you don't have an email address in your profile :O
- CONTRARlAN 11y ago
  Please ask him more here, so we can all benefit from the discussion.
  - cowpig 11y ago
    I work for a global campaigning/petitioning organization and one of our focuses is climate change. I'm wondering who the key players are, what is currently being done, whether there's opportunity for public pressure to influence any of the actors, etc.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

baddox 11y ago

Also, if you're cynical like me, then the palm oil industry might be a good place to start looking for why these regulations were created.

CyberDildonics 11y ago

Trans fat is really bad news. It is a preservative that is hugely detrimental to health. Palm oil is separate and deforestation is a separate problem from that. Keeping something that hurts people legal because another country is destroying forests is not a workable plan. Indonesia needs to be dealt with separate from the issue of trans fats.

free2rhyme214 11y ago
Bingo.

hellbanner 11y ago

Got any other sites on the sustainability of foods? (or a website of your company?)

pbreit 11y ago

Phew! I thought that was going to say palm oil is unhealthy. All the stuff listed on that page is improvable.