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> My own theory of depression is that it is your brain's way of getting you to change something in your life that is counterproductive to your future wellbeing.

> My own theory of depression is that it is your brain's way of getting you to change something in your life that is counterproductive to your future wellbeing. Sometimes it isn't entirely obvious what exactly is causing the depression, but if you evaluate all aspects of your life and ask yourself "is this what I really want?", you will eventually figure it out. Utter crap. If I thought long and hard enough, my depression that was bad enough to cause psychosis would resolve itself? At 12, I had something in my life (good parents, happy home) that was causing me to be unable to get out of bed? Clinical depression (major depressive disorder) is not related to your circumstances. That is what distinguishes it from situational depression, which many people experience. I was at some of my worst when my external life was at its best. "Just think really hard about why you've got a broken limb and it'll reset itself!"

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- tjradcliffe 11y ago
  > I think depression has a similar role. Why? I can't see any basis for your belief other than "it just makes sense to me", which is the epistemology of bloodletting and witchburning. Evolutionary just-so stories have been so thoroughly and repeatedly debunked that no one thinks they can be evidence for anything. They may be useful motivators for testable ideas, but that's all. So where is your evidence, your clinical studies, your field observations? Anything. You've said that you believe clinical depression--a serious and even deadly disease--is caused by the brain trying to tell you there is something you need to change in your life, and given zero evidence for it. You've barely even motivated it. Under those circumstances, one either has to assume bad faith, or an astonishing level of hubris and myopia. I'd say the person who responded to you was being rather generous, given what you've said is equivalent to, "It just makes sense to me that your cancer is just your body's way of saying that you need to change something important in your life, at least in the cases I've seen." Anecdata ("the cases I've seen") is not evidence for anything, because we all know that humans are terrible observers and prone to confirmation bias and other problematic behaviours, so telling us "no really I saw this!" is not evidence of anything except what a naive observer believes, and again: that kind of thinking is what informed pre-scientific medicine for thousands of years, resulting in a vast amount of misery and very few effective treatments.
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    - MDCore 11y ago
      There is a lovely quote that I think might apply here: "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers". You're presenting a simple answer to a complex, multi-faceted problem and presenting it without any evidence besides your experience. This problem is also deeply personal and challenging to many people (sometimes life-endingly challenging), but your suggestions are coming off as flippant. If you want to be heard I would suggest presenting scientific evidence, and presenting it gently.
  - cactusface 11y ago
    Okay, we know that CBT works for depression, yeah? CBT postulates that your thoughts cause your emotions. Part of the therapy is identifying and refuting negative thoughts like, "You're worthless!" Well, if other people are telling you that you're worthless, in one way or another, then it has the same effect. It doesn't matter how much CBT you do, if everyone is around you is telling you that you're worthless, you're going to stay depressed, because that kind of treatment makes you feel angry, sad, and ashamed. You can't just reason your way out of it.
    - eivarv 11y ago
      Your own thoughts and other people's communication do not have the same effect in the context you're describing. You could agree or disagree with what other people say (or whether it matters), for one, while the unreasonable thoughts and irrational thought patterns associated with depression is part of your own perspective in this case. These negative thoughts are identified by and refuted because of the fact that they are irrational, resulting from erroneous thinking. Also, your own thoughts and beliefs would cause or motivate your emotions, but the external forces you describe would necessarily have to be interpreted by you (i.e. pass through the lens of your thoughts and beliefs). It would not be other the other people's criticism that leads to any emotion, but rather your thoughts about it, according to CBT. Depression (clinical, major depressive disorder) is also something wholly different than feeling angry, sad and ashamed, and is (generally) in fact not a results of bad treatment or other external factors.
- MDCore 11y ago
  Depression affects about 4-12% of the people -- depending on how you look at the numbers -- not insignificant. What you seem to be talking about is not major depression. I grant it may be an interesting theory for some mild depressions, although I'd prefer to see some evidence presented. To suggest it to someone who has actual, clinical depression can come off as offensive and patronising, thus the kind of response you received from Devthrowaway80.
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empressplay 11y ago
I too have had clinical depression since I was a teenager and I thought exactly how you did for two decades, however, I've since come to realise that depression is an extremely complex mechanism that doesn't need a single traumatic event, or an overtly obvious pattern of negative experiences in order to manifest. What it primarily requires is reinforcement of negative thought patterns, and this reinforcement can exist in many forms, from many places at many severities. Further, because of defence mechanisms (or just natural timidity) we can consciously disregard negative events (while the reptile-brain is still impacted) and by the time depression takes hold we're well past any ability to rationalise away (or even recognise) all the baggage we've collected. Now, is there an inherent biochemical condition that could make us more susceptible to depression? I imagine there is. But that doesn't discount that there are likely mental mechanisms in play as well, nor that working with those mechanisms could provide some improvement.
javert 11y ago
As someone with clinical depression, I don't agree with you at all here. (I am tempted to say "Utter crap," but apparently your harshness prompted the other guy to delete his comment.) How you deal with your circumstances absolutely can cause clinical depression. Clinical depression can be a brain problem or a mind problem. It can be faulty hardware or it can be operator error (mistake). I know it can be a mind problem from experience, and I know it can be a brain problem because any physical system can break down and malfunction. You are saying something here that isn't true, and it's something that can potentially be very damaging to people (unlike saying something untrue about many things).
- empressplay 11y ago
  Thank you for distilling my verbosity down to something a bit more understandable =)

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tjradcliffe 11y ago
> I think depression has a similar role. Why? I can't see any basis for your belief other than "it just makes sense to me", which is the epistemology of bloodletting and witchburning. Evolutionary just-so stories have been so thoroughly and repeatedly debunked that no one thinks they can be evidence for anything. They may be useful motivators for testable ideas, but that's all. So where is your evidence, your clinical studies, your field observations? Anything. You've said that you believe clinical depression--a serious and even deadly disease--is caused by the brain trying to tell you there is something you need to change in your life, and given zero evidence for it. You've barely even motivated it. Under those circumstances, one either has to assume bad faith, or an astonishing level of hubris and myopia. I'd say the person who responded to you was being rather generous, given what you've said is equivalent to, "It just makes sense to me that your cancer is just your body's way of saying that you need to change something important in your life, at least in the cases I've seen." Anecdata ("the cases I've seen") is not evidence for anything, because we all know that humans are terrible observers and prone to confirmation bias and other problematic behaviours, so telling us "no really I saw this!" is not evidence of anything except what a naive observer believes, and again: that kind of thinking is what informed pre-scientific medicine for thousands of years, resulting in a vast amount of misery and very few effective treatments.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - MDCore 11y ago
    There is a lovely quote that I think might apply here: "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers". You're presenting a simple answer to a complex, multi-faceted problem and presenting it without any evidence besides your experience. This problem is also deeply personal and challenging to many people (sometimes life-endingly challenging), but your suggestions are coming off as flippant. If you want to be heard I would suggest presenting scientific evidence, and presenting it gently.
- cactusface 11y ago
  Okay, we know that CBT works for depression, yeah? CBT postulates that your thoughts cause your emotions. Part of the therapy is identifying and refuting negative thoughts like, "You're worthless!" Well, if other people are telling you that you're worthless, in one way or another, then it has the same effect. It doesn't matter how much CBT you do, if everyone is around you is telling you that you're worthless, you're going to stay depressed, because that kind of treatment makes you feel angry, sad, and ashamed. You can't just reason your way out of it.
  - eivarv 11y ago
    Your own thoughts and other people's communication do not have the same effect in the context you're describing. You could agree or disagree with what other people say (or whether it matters), for one, while the unreasonable thoughts and irrational thought patterns associated with depression is part of your own perspective in this case. These negative thoughts are identified by and refuted because of the fact that they are irrational, resulting from erroneous thinking. Also, your own thoughts and beliefs would cause or motivate your emotions, but the external forces you describe would necessarily have to be interpreted by you (i.e. pass through the lens of your thoughts and beliefs). It would not be other the other people's criticism that leads to any emotion, but rather your thoughts about it, according to CBT. Depression (clinical, major depressive disorder) is also something wholly different than feeling angry, sad and ashamed, and is (generally) in fact not a results of bad treatment or other external factors.
MDCore 11y ago
Depression affects about 4-12% of the people -- depending on how you look at the numbers -- not insignificant. What you seem to be talking about is not major depression. I grant it may be an interesting theory for some mild depressions, although I'd prefer to see some evidence presented. To suggest it to someone who has actual, clinical depression can come off as offensive and patronising, thus the kind of response you received from Devthrowaway80.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

empressplay 11y ago

I too have had clinical depression since I was a teenager and I thought exactly how you did for two decades, however, I've since come to realise that depression is an extremely complex mechanism that doesn't need a single traumatic event, or an overtly obvious pattern of negative experiences in order to manifest. What it primarily requires is reinforcement of negative thought patterns, and this reinforcement can exist in many forms, from many places at many severities. Further, because of defence mechanisms (or just natural timidity) we can consciously disregard negative events (while the reptile-brain is still impacted) and by the time depression takes hold we're well past any ability to rationalise away (or even recognise) all the baggage we've collected. Now, is there an inherent biochemical condition that could make us more susceptible to depression? I imagine there is. But that doesn't discount that there are likely mental mechanisms in play as well, nor that working with those mechanisms could provide some improvement.

javert 11y ago

As someone with clinical depression, I don't agree with you at all here. (I am tempted to say "Utter crap," but apparently your harshness prompted the other guy to delete his comment.) How you deal with your circumstances absolutely can cause clinical depression. Clinical depression can be a brain problem or a mind problem. It can be faulty hardware or it can be operator error (mistake). I know it can be a mind problem from experience, and I know it can be a brain problem because any physical system can break down and malfunction. You are saying something here that isn't true, and it's something that can potentially be very damaging to people (unlike saying something untrue about many things).

empressplay 11y ago
Thank you for distilling my verbosity down to something a bit more understandable =)