4 ms·

I don't think Microsoft is ever going to risk putting a Backdoor™ in Windows after NSA_key or at the very least after the Snowden document leaks + OPM hack (whi

I don't think Microsoft is ever going to risk putting a Backdoor™ in Windows after NSA_key or at the very least after the Snowden document leaks + OPM hack (which both prove the US government's incompetence in storing classified information securely, which means the company's backdoor could be exposed at any time). But that doesn't mean Microsoft isn't going to make it easy for the NSA to bypass its security. We've seen several reports of that from the Snowden documents, and it affects OneDrive, Outlook, Skype and probably even Bitlocker. All Microsoft needs to do is not fix a vulnerability it finds out about (not a third party that reports the vulnerability to the company, as they would have no choice but to fix that). And it doesn't even need to do that indefinitely. It could fix it when a new vulnerability appears, and it can rotate them every 6 months or so. Then it can either directly give that vulnerability to the NSA through all the "cyber sharing programs" where Microsoft has been a "volunteer" for years (way before Apple), or it can let NSA "discover" it on its own, which can be as easily done as Microsoft's security researchers talking about a new vulnerability internally through channels that don't have strong end-to-end security.

MichaelGG 11y ago
If they rotate vulnerabilities in Bitlocker, that could be discovered via reverse engineering. And a big vulnerability (like incorrectly calculating the IV for a sector) would require rewriting the disk. I'd also wonder what vulnerabilities would exist in such software. The encryption part is well described, and one would expect it'd be done right (and if it's wrong, that requires rewriting the disk to fix). Other than that, what are we talking about? Bugs in the TPM/BIOS PCR checking? Accidentally writing the keys somewhere? I'm probably being very unimaginative here. Edit: Let me say I'm assuming you have a password in addition to the TPM. Obviously if you can boot the machine up and have Bitlocker decrypt, and you have access to the machine, you can somehow extract the key if you have the resources.
Someone1234 11y ago
> Windows after NSA_key _NSAKEY wasn't a backdoor. People need to let that go. Not a single line of code was ever discovered that indicated the NSA was utilising it as a backdoor into cryptography, so the entire basis for the conspiracy theory is that the variable which holds the "backup key" happened to have been named that (and that includes the NT4.0/2000 source code leaks). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY Also Microsoft shares the Windows code with many institutions[0]. Yet none of them, nobody at Microsoft, and not even the Snowden leak indicated a backdoor in Windows. Microsoft MIGHT have made it easier for the US Government to tap Skype calls (and I believe that they did based on available evidence). Aside from that for all the mudslinging almost none of it ever sticks. [0] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/
tptacek 11y ago
Please stop spreading FUD about "NSAKEY". It's an Alex Jones Infowars-level conspiracy theory that has been comprehensively debunked.
- sarciszewski 11y ago
  I've never read the debunking, but the NSA's reliance on codenames (even before Microsoft) for everything leads me to believe they wouldn't ever be so obvious.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  Actually, I looked into things as promised. The Wikipedia links and whatever popped up in my Google searches. Turns out the only citation you had, a HN news commenter, was just repeating the claims of a MS spokesperson with some added opinions. I found a more interesting source which has similar claims: http://cryptome.org/nsakey-ms-dc.htm http://cryptome.org/nsakey-ms-dc.htm On the surface, it seems believable. However, like Duncan, I'm seeing glaring problems with these responses. It boils down to this: the Microsoft rep claimed they came up with all details (including the key & its name) on their own without NSA intervention, generated/control both keys themselves, submitted the design for review, and got NSA approval. Yet, without NSA's involvement, a developer named their key NSAKEY and when decrypted its email was "postmaster@nsa.gov." Also, as Duncan noted & my HSM guy as well, it's standard for HSM's to let you export keys for backing them up or multi-site usage. So, their claims are highly unusual, suspect, and weak. The evasive behavior that led up to this isn't typical of even Microsoft. They usually come up with some CYA BS rather quickly. Also, the odds of a Microsoft-controlled key they made entirely on their own being called NSAKEY with NSA's email on it without NSA participation are low albeit possible (dev joke). Far from Alex Jones stuff, there's actual substance to worries over what NSAKEY did or does. I agree with critiques that it's a lower concern given all the attack angles on Windows from outside or inside perspective. Yet, dozens of reports didn't show anything along lines of "comprehensively debunked." Instead, we had a series of weak stories from Microsoft that raised more questions than answers with plenty of evasion on their part. And they're known to work with NSA. So, people should still not trust that and use the steps that one person published to replace the key with their own. Solves the problem with minimal fuss, eh?

MichaelGG 11y ago

If they rotate vulnerabilities in Bitlocker, that could be discovered via reverse engineering. And a big vulnerability (like incorrectly calculating the IV for a sector) would require rewriting the disk. I'd also wonder what vulnerabilities would exist in such software. The encryption part is well described, and one would expect it'd be done right (and if it's wrong, that requires rewriting the disk to fix). Other than that, what are we talking about? Bugs in the TPM/BIOS PCR checking? Accidentally writing the keys somewhere? I'm probably being very unimaginative here. Edit: Let me say I'm assuming you have a password in addition to the TPM. Obviously if you can boot the machine up and have Bitlocker decrypt, and you have access to the machine, you can somehow extract the key if you have the resources.

Someone1234 11y ago

> Windows after NSA_key _NSAKEY wasn't a backdoor. People need to let that go. Not a single line of code was ever discovered that indicated the NSA was utilising it as a backdoor into cryptography, so the entire basis for the conspiracy theory is that the variable which holds the "backup key" happened to have been named that (and that includes the NT4.0/2000 source code leaks). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY Also Microsoft shares the Windows code with many institutions[0]. Yet none of them, nobody at Microsoft, and not even the Snowden leak indicated a backdoor in Windows. Microsoft MIGHT have made it easier for the US Government to tap Skype calls (and I believe that they did based on available evidence). Aside from that for all the mudslinging almost none of it ever sticks. [0] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/

tptacek 11y ago

Please stop spreading FUD about "NSAKEY". It's an Alex Jones Infowars-level conspiracy theory that has been comprehensively debunked.

sarciszewski 11y ago
I've never read the debunking, but the NSA's reliance on codenames (even before Microsoft) for everything leads me to believe they wouldn't ever be so obvious.
nickpsecurity 11y ago
Actually, I looked into things as promised. The Wikipedia links and whatever popped up in my Google searches. Turns out the only citation you had, a HN news commenter, was just repeating the claims of a MS spokesperson with some added opinions. I found a more interesting source which has similar claims: http://cryptome.org/nsakey-ms-dc.htm http://cryptome.org/nsakey-ms-dc.htm On the surface, it seems believable. However, like Duncan, I'm seeing glaring problems with these responses. It boils down to this: the Microsoft rep claimed they came up with all details (including the key & its name) on their own without NSA intervention, generated/control both keys themselves, submitted the design for review, and got NSA approval. Yet, without NSA's involvement, a developer named their key NSAKEY and when decrypted its email was "postmaster@nsa.gov." Also, as Duncan noted & my HSM guy as well, it's standard for HSM's to let you export keys for backing them up or multi-site usage. So, their claims are highly unusual, suspect, and weak. The evasive behavior that led up to this isn't typical of even Microsoft. They usually come up with some CYA BS rather quickly. Also, the odds of a Microsoft-controlled key they made entirely on their own being called NSAKEY with NSA's email on it without NSA participation are low albeit possible (dev joke). Far from Alex Jones stuff, there's actual substance to worries over what NSAKEY did or does. I agree with critiques that it's a lower concern given all the attack angles on Windows from outside or inside perspective. Yet, dozens of reports didn't show anything along lines of "comprehensively debunked." Instead, we had a series of weak stories from Microsoft that raised more questions than answers with plenty of evasion on their part. And they're known to work with NSA. So, people should still not trust that and use the steps that one person published to replace the key with their own. Solves the problem with minimal fuss, eh?