10 ms·

Depression's Upside (2010)

79 points by SuperChihuahua 11y ago

jE22teTh 11y ago
In the US, a surprisingly easy way to inadvertently cause mild depression is to decrease intake of iodized salt over time. The "natural" iodine content of many foods (bread, milk) seems to be dropping steadily due to organic and other preparation practices. Kelp-extract supplements with around 200mcg of iodine daily can go a long way towards preventing mild depression associated with borderline iodine deficiency.
- alecrn 11y ago
  If it's iodine deficiency that causes depression, then why would decreasing intake of iodized salt help?
  - positr0n 11y ago
    He said decreasing intake would inadvertently cause mild depression, not help. (I read it that way too at first)
  - qntty 11y ago
    He's saying that a decreased iodine intake due to eating organic foods causes mild depression.
  - jE22teTh 11y ago
    Sorry for the poor phrasing. Decreasing salt intake is a healthy thing to do these days, which will likely also decrease one's iodine intake.
    - jetru 11y ago
      It's not. We don't really know for sure. http://www.medpagetoday.com/Endocrinology/GeneralEndocrinology/49602 http://www.medpagetoday.com/Endocrinology/GeneralEndocrinolo... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/06/more-scientists-doubt-salt-is-as-bad-for-you-as-the-government-says/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/06/m...
- MDCore 11y ago
  This looks interesting! Do you have any articles, papers etc. I can read?
  - jE22teTh 11y ago
    Re-emergence of moderate iodine deficiency in developed countries: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130522131000.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130522131000.ht... In New Zealand the emergence of moderate iodine deficiency resulted in a mandate of adding iodized salt to bread: http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-wellness/nutrition/iodine http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-welln... The reasons for the deficiency look a lot like the US: "The re-emergence in iodine deficiency appears to be due to: * the increased consumption of commercially-prepared foods (manufactured mostly with non-iodised salt) * the declining use of iodine-containing sanitizers by the dairy industry * less salt being used in home prepared foods as a response to the health messages to reduce salt intake"
    - MDCore 11y ago
      Thank you, that's really useful.
- tim333 11y ago
  Also consuming more Omega 3 oils, found in oily fish, can help. eg see http://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/depression-12/depression-news-176/fish-oil-and-depression-644950.html http://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/depression-12/dep...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- empressplay 11y ago
  The problem with the idea of using supplements to solve depression is it's a bit like fine-tuning the octane of gasoline in a car to solve a bad air-fuel mixture. You could potentially make the engine run a little better, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem, which is usually emotional trauma. Developing coping mechanisms is a much better approach, also coming to acceptance (reducing resistance) about things that make you uncomfortable (ie impermanence, fear of rejection, trust issues, loneliness, perceived lack of legacy, etc.)
  - DanBC 11y ago
    > the underlying problem, which is usually emotional trauma This is untrue. The emotional trauma hypothesis is thoroughly debunked and has been for very many years. The vast majority of people with depression do not have any emotional trauma.
    - empressplay 11y ago
      If you attempt to reduce an extremely complex system of incidental traumas, re-enforcements, psycho-social effects and a multitude of many other factors down to "there was a death in the family" or "my father hit me once" then I would totally agree with you, that has been thoroughly debunked. There are healthy people whose fathers hit them, or have had deaths in their families, this is absolutely true. However, you do your mind (and yourself, obviously) an extreme disservice if you think of its mechanics in such simple terms (especially if you suffer from depression.) It's like troubleshooting a computer by attempting to discern its vague history and comparing it to other computers, and then deciding that it's a hardware problem because some computers have similar software and function okay. Any computer technician can tell you that modern PCs are way too complex to repair using such simple logic (unless you just start formatting drives.) Now, there may indeed be a hardware problem, but you can't discount the OS based on a three-point checklist. I grew up in a family with an extremely negative view of people who had mental health problems, and when I came down with depression I ran to fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, etc. because I didn't want to be "crazy". But all I did was set myself up for worse problems down the road when that rationalisation wore thin. Now, I'm not saying that taking an emotion-centred approach will solve all of your problems and make your depression go away -- it probably won't. But it will help you cope. Numerous studies show that it helps people cope. How could that be, if your thoughts didn't matter?
univalent 11y ago
I read an interesting paper a few years back showing a correlation between low(er) rates of depression in population areas with high(er) lithium content in their drinking water. The paper also discussed how big pharma had pushed doctors away from Li over the years towards more expensive drugs.
- tormeh 11y ago
  Lithium is quite dangerous, though. The quantities have to be pretty exact and injected with syringe, if I remember correctly, which means a doctor will have to do it for you. Every time. That's obviously problematic.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - MDCore 11y ago
    Lithium salts are most commonly prescribed in pill form. Their therapeutic range is quite narrow, and the toxic range follows quickly beyond that, so blood levels need to be monitored on a regular basis.
- j_baker 11y ago
  Lithium's really only useful if you're treating bipolar depression. It has mood stabilizing properties, and giving lithium to a non-bipolar patient will "flatten" their moods.
  - tachyonbeam 11y ago
    Disagree. I've tried low doses of lithium orotate and it had positive effects on my mood. I don't think it's inherently mood-lifting, but it lowered my anxiety by a huge margin. It was very noticeable. Suddenly, I could be around in public and not worry at all what people might think about me. Anxiety can be like chronic pain, over time, it wears you down, and can lead to depression.
    - 11y ago
albatross_down 11y ago
William Styron, one of the authors quoted in the article, wrote a fascinating memoir about depression called Darkness Visible. Highly recommended!
vermooten 11y ago
I've just started CBT to hopefully fix my broken spirit, the article nailed my symptoms. I'm not sure my staying indoors in a darkened room and sighing a lot is helping me to focus on anything though.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- tim333 11y ago
  Good luck. I did some and found it helpful. I kind guess personally that it works by a kind of neural network rewiring. Before CBT some neurones are taking input, processing it as indicating things being crappy and directly signalling that to the older reptilian bits of the brain that deal with that, without conscious awareness. By consciously becoming aware of the things are crappy reasoning you can argue against it and rewire those networks. At least that's my theory on it.
  - empressplay 11y ago
    That's essentially mindfulness too -- you catch a negative thought and then you construct a counter-argument against it to placate the reptile-brain. It's like living with a little child who's prone to temper-tantrums. Whatever it can take poorly it will, and it's your responsibility to re-frame things in a good light quickly.
    - saw-lau 11y ago
      +1 for a combination of both CBT and mindfulness. Both have really helped me with my depression.
    - d-equivalence 11y ago
      But mindfulness is not about re-framing or answering back with an argument. Its exactly the opposite!
- empressplay 11y ago
  Unfortunately depressive rumination can become self-referential -- that is, while you might be more analytical and capable of coming to extraordinary conclusions about things, that analysis can easily turn against you and become self-criticism about your competence to produce anything meaningful. It's a double-edged sword.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- Devthrowaway80 11y ago
  > My own theory of depression is that it is your brain's way of getting you to change something in your life that is counterproductive to your future wellbeing. Sometimes it isn't entirely obvious what exactly is causing the depression, but if you evaluate all aspects of your life and ask yourself "is this what I really want?", you will eventually figure it out. Utter crap. If I thought long and hard enough, my depression that was bad enough to cause psychosis would resolve itself? At 12, I had something in my life (good parents, happy home) that was causing me to be unable to get out of bed? Clinical depression (major depressive disorder) is not related to your circumstances. That is what distinguishes it from situational depression, which many people experience. I was at some of my worst when my external life was at its best. "Just think really hard about why you've got a broken limb and it'll reset itself!"
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - tjradcliffe 11y ago
      > I think depression has a similar role. Why? I can't see any basis for your belief other than "it just makes sense to me", which is the epistemology of bloodletting and witchburning. Evolutionary just-so stories have been so thoroughly and repeatedly debunked that no one thinks they can be evidence for anything. They may be useful motivators for testable ideas, but that's all. So where is your evidence, your clinical studies, your field observations? Anything. You've said that you believe clinical depression--a serious and even deadly disease--is caused by the brain trying to tell you there is something you need to change in your life, and given zero evidence for it. You've barely even motivated it. Under those circumstances, one either has to assume bad faith, or an astonishing level of hubris and myopia. I'd say the person who responded to you was being rather generous, given what you've said is equivalent to, "It just makes sense to me that your cancer is just your body's way of saying that you need to change something important in your life, at least in the cases I've seen." Anecdata ("the cases I've seen") is not evidence for anything, because we all know that humans are terrible observers and prone to confirmation bias and other problematic behaviours, so telling us "no really I saw this!" is not evidence of anything except what a naive observer believes, and again: that kind of thinking is what informed pre-scientific medicine for thousands of years, resulting in a vast amount of misery and very few effective treatments.
selimthegrim 11y ago
And Jonah Lehrer has magically regained credibility how?
- bitteralmond 11y ago
  He hasn't-- the article is from 2010.
- doomrobo 11y ago
  Something something ad hominem. Besides that, to what are you referring?
  - eCa 11y ago
    He had "problems" a couple of years back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lehrer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lehrer
  - lgieron 11y ago
    In real world, ad hominem arguments make more sense that they are sometimes given credit. Of course, in an ideal world, we should be able to just judge someone's argument based on its own merit; however, in practice, an 99% arguments (pretty much everything that is not a mathematical proof?) will cite external facts and references. This creates an ample opportunity for manipulation for someone dishonest and hence credibility is important.
Foy 11y ago
"I shall probably do little more but be content to admire the strides others made in Science." - Charles Darwin Understatement of the millenia?
arbre 11y ago
I suffered from depression for several years. What worked eventually is meditation. I meditate 1 hour every day in a meditation center and I participate regularly in retreats and I feel happier every day.
- empressplay 11y ago
  You tend to have to "come to" mindfulness though -- in my personal experience you can't just wander over to someone with depression and go "oh, meditate and you'll feel better". They wouldn't know why they were meditating or what it was trying to achieve. You need to come to understand the mechanisms in your mind that cause the symptoms before you can take action to mitigate them and that wisdom unfortunately usually only comes with time.
- ep103 11y ago
  I would love if you would be willing to spare more details. I'm looking to start learning how to meditate. What worked for you? Where did you start?
  - arbre 11y ago
    A good posture, focusing on the moment, the sensations, the breathing, accepting the thoughts but not feeding them. Do that every day and be patient. It is best to practice with other people as more experienced people can guide you. Some people start right away with a retreat. It is also a good way to start.
    - ep103 11y ago
      I... need a guide or something. I expect I'll do more research this weekend, but just sitting and listening to myself breathe? I have plenty of calmness in my life, but surely there's a difference between meditation and relaxation? Sorry, not really directing this at you, its late, kinda just stream of consciousing before sleep. I do appreciate your response : )
      - 11y ago
RyanMcGreal 11y ago
> They began by focusing on the thought process that defines the disorder, which is known as rumination. (The verb is derived from the Latin word for “chewed over,” which describes the act of digestion in cattle, in which they swallow, regurgitate and then rechew their food.) In recent decades, psychiatry has come to see rumination as a dangerous mental habit, because it leads people to fixate on their flaws and problems, thus extending their negative moods. This really spoke to me. My mild tendency to depression seems to be predicated entirely on rumination. To the extent that I can avoid taking the first few slippery steps in those mental pathways that spiral down into despair, I am generally able to avoid getting dragged down. That required me to accept that some existential questions aren't answerable in any satisfactory manner, and to simply stop posing them to myself.

In the US, a surprisingly easy way to inadvertently cause mild depression is to decrease intake of iodized salt over time. The "natural" iodine content of many foods (bread, milk) seems to be dropping steadily due to organic and other preparation practices. Kelp-extract supplements with around 200mcg of iodine daily can go a long way towards preventing mild depression associated with borderline iodine deficiency.

alecrn 11y ago
If it's iodine deficiency that causes depression, then why would decreasing intake of iodized salt help?
- positr0n 11y ago
  He said decreasing intake would inadvertently cause mild depression, not help. (I read it that way too at first)
- qntty 11y ago
  He's saying that a decreased iodine intake due to eating organic foods causes mild depression.
- jE22teTh 11y ago
  Sorry for the poor phrasing. Decreasing salt intake is a healthy thing to do these days, which will likely also decrease one's iodine intake.
  - jetru 11y ago
    It's not. We don't really know for sure. http://www.medpagetoday.com/Endocrinology/GeneralEndocrinology/49602 http://www.medpagetoday.com/Endocrinology/GeneralEndocrinolo... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/06/more-scientists-doubt-salt-is-as-bad-for-you-as-the-government-says/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/06/m...
MDCore 11y ago
This looks interesting! Do you have any articles, papers etc. I can read?
- jE22teTh 11y ago
  Re-emergence of moderate iodine deficiency in developed countries: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130522131000.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130522131000.ht... In New Zealand the emergence of moderate iodine deficiency resulted in a mandate of adding iodized salt to bread: http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-wellness/nutrition/iodine http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-welln... The reasons for the deficiency look a lot like the US: "The re-emergence in iodine deficiency appears to be due to: * the increased consumption of commercially-prepared foods (manufactured mostly with non-iodised salt) * the declining use of iodine-containing sanitizers by the dairy industry * less salt being used in home prepared foods as a response to the health messages to reduce salt intake"
  - MDCore 11y ago
    Thank you, that's really useful.
tim333 11y ago
Also consuming more Omega 3 oils, found in oily fish, can help. eg see http://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/depression-12/depression-news-176/fish-oil-and-depression-644950.html http://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/depression-12/dep...
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
empressplay 11y ago
The problem with the idea of using supplements to solve depression is it's a bit like fine-tuning the octane of gasoline in a car to solve a bad air-fuel mixture. You could potentially make the engine run a little better, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem, which is usually emotional trauma. Developing coping mechanisms is a much better approach, also coming to acceptance (reducing resistance) about things that make you uncomfortable (ie impermanence, fear of rejection, trust issues, loneliness, perceived lack of legacy, etc.)
- DanBC 11y ago
  > the underlying problem, which is usually emotional trauma This is untrue. The emotional trauma hypothesis is thoroughly debunked and has been for very many years. The vast majority of people with depression do not have any emotional trauma.
  - empressplay 11y ago
    If you attempt to reduce an extremely complex system of incidental traumas, re-enforcements, psycho-social effects and a multitude of many other factors down to "there was a death in the family" or "my father hit me once" then I would totally agree with you, that has been thoroughly debunked. There are healthy people whose fathers hit them, or have had deaths in their families, this is absolutely true. However, you do your mind (and yourself, obviously) an extreme disservice if you think of its mechanics in such simple terms (especially if you suffer from depression.) It's like troubleshooting a computer by attempting to discern its vague history and comparing it to other computers, and then deciding that it's a hardware problem because some computers have similar software and function okay. Any computer technician can tell you that modern PCs are way too complex to repair using such simple logic (unless you just start formatting drives.) Now, there may indeed be a hardware problem, but you can't discount the OS based on a three-point checklist. I grew up in a family with an extremely negative view of people who had mental health problems, and when I came down with depression I ran to fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, etc. because I didn't want to be "crazy". But all I did was set myself up for worse problems down the road when that rationalisation wore thin. Now, I'm not saying that taking an emotion-centred approach will solve all of your problems and make your depression go away -- it probably won't. But it will help you cope. Numerous studies show that it helps people cope. How could that be, if your thoughts didn't matter?

univalent 11y ago

I read an interesting paper a few years back showing a correlation between low(er) rates of depression in population areas with high(er) lithium content in their drinking water. The paper also discussed how big pharma had pushed doctors away from Li over the years towards more expensive drugs.

tormeh 11y ago
Lithium is quite dangerous, though. The quantities have to be pretty exact and injected with syringe, if I remember correctly, which means a doctor will have to do it for you. Every time. That's obviously problematic.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- MDCore 11y ago
  Lithium salts are most commonly prescribed in pill form. Their therapeutic range is quite narrow, and the toxic range follows quickly beyond that, so blood levels need to be monitored on a regular basis.
j_baker 11y ago
Lithium's really only useful if you're treating bipolar depression. It has mood stabilizing properties, and giving lithium to a non-bipolar patient will "flatten" their moods.
- tachyonbeam 11y ago
  Disagree. I've tried low doses of lithium orotate and it had positive effects on my mood. I don't think it's inherently mood-lifting, but it lowered my anxiety by a huge margin. It was very noticeable. Suddenly, I could be around in public and not worry at all what people might think about me. Anxiety can be like chronic pain, over time, it wears you down, and can lead to depression.
  - 11y ago

albatross_down 11y ago

William Styron, one of the authors quoted in the article, wrote a fascinating memoir about depression called Darkness Visible. Highly recommended!

vermooten 11y ago

I've just started CBT to hopefully fix my broken spirit, the article nailed my symptoms. I'm not sure my staying indoors in a darkened room and sighing a lot is helping me to focus on anything though.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tim333 11y ago
Good luck. I did some and found it helpful. I kind guess personally that it works by a kind of neural network rewiring. Before CBT some neurones are taking input, processing it as indicating things being crappy and directly signalling that to the older reptilian bits of the brain that deal with that, without conscious awareness. By consciously becoming aware of the things are crappy reasoning you can argue against it and rewire those networks. At least that's my theory on it.
- empressplay 11y ago
  That's essentially mindfulness too -- you catch a negative thought and then you construct a counter-argument against it to placate the reptile-brain. It's like living with a little child who's prone to temper-tantrums. Whatever it can take poorly it will, and it's your responsibility to re-frame things in a good light quickly.
  - saw-lau 11y ago
    +1 for a combination of both CBT and mindfulness. Both have really helped me with my depression.
  - d-equivalence 11y ago
    But mindfulness is not about re-framing or answering back with an argument. Its exactly the opposite!
empressplay 11y ago
Unfortunately depressive rumination can become self-referential -- that is, while you might be more analytical and capable of coming to extraordinary conclusions about things, that analysis can easily turn against you and become self-criticism about your competence to produce anything meaningful. It's a double-edged sword.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Devthrowaway80 11y ago
> My own theory of depression is that it is your brain's way of getting you to change something in your life that is counterproductive to your future wellbeing. Sometimes it isn't entirely obvious what exactly is causing the depression, but if you evaluate all aspects of your life and ask yourself "is this what I really want?", you will eventually figure it out. Utter crap. If I thought long and hard enough, my depression that was bad enough to cause psychosis would resolve itself? At 12, I had something in my life (good parents, happy home) that was causing me to be unable to get out of bed? Clinical depression (major depressive disorder) is not related to your circumstances. That is what distinguishes it from situational depression, which many people experience. I was at some of my worst when my external life was at its best. "Just think really hard about why you've got a broken limb and it'll reset itself!"
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - tjradcliffe 11y ago
    > I think depression has a similar role. Why? I can't see any basis for your belief other than "it just makes sense to me", which is the epistemology of bloodletting and witchburning. Evolutionary just-so stories have been so thoroughly and repeatedly debunked that no one thinks they can be evidence for anything. They may be useful motivators for testable ideas, but that's all. So where is your evidence, your clinical studies, your field observations? Anything. You've said that you believe clinical depression--a serious and even deadly disease--is caused by the brain trying to tell you there is something you need to change in your life, and given zero evidence for it. You've barely even motivated it. Under those circumstances, one either has to assume bad faith, or an astonishing level of hubris and myopia. I'd say the person who responded to you was being rather generous, given what you've said is equivalent to, "It just makes sense to me that your cancer is just your body's way of saying that you need to change something important in your life, at least in the cases I've seen." Anecdata ("the cases I've seen") is not evidence for anything, because we all know that humans are terrible observers and prone to confirmation bias and other problematic behaviours, so telling us "no really I saw this!" is not evidence of anything except what a naive observer believes, and again: that kind of thinking is what informed pre-scientific medicine for thousands of years, resulting in a vast amount of misery and very few effective treatments.

selimthegrim 11y ago

And Jonah Lehrer has magically regained credibility how?

bitteralmond 11y ago
He hasn't-- the article is from 2010.
doomrobo 11y ago
Something something ad hominem. Besides that, to what are you referring?
- eCa 11y ago
  He had "problems" a couple of years back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lehrer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lehrer
- lgieron 11y ago
  In real world, ad hominem arguments make more sense that they are sometimes given credit. Of course, in an ideal world, we should be able to just judge someone's argument based on its own merit; however, in practice, an 99% arguments (pretty much everything that is not a mathematical proof?) will cite external facts and references. This creates an ample opportunity for manipulation for someone dishonest and hence credibility is important.

Foy 11y ago

"I shall probably do little more but be content to admire the strides others made in Science." - Charles Darwin Understatement of the millenia?

arbre 11y ago

I suffered from depression for several years. What worked eventually is meditation. I meditate 1 hour every day in a meditation center and I participate regularly in retreats and I feel happier every day.

empressplay 11y ago
You tend to have to "come to" mindfulness though -- in my personal experience you can't just wander over to someone with depression and go "oh, meditate and you'll feel better". They wouldn't know why they were meditating or what it was trying to achieve. You need to come to understand the mechanisms in your mind that cause the symptoms before you can take action to mitigate them and that wisdom unfortunately usually only comes with time.
ep103 11y ago
I would love if you would be willing to spare more details. I'm looking to start learning how to meditate. What worked for you? Where did you start?
- arbre 11y ago
  A good posture, focusing on the moment, the sensations, the breathing, accepting the thoughts but not feeding them. Do that every day and be patient. It is best to practice with other people as more experienced people can guide you. Some people start right away with a retreat. It is also a good way to start.
  - ep103 11y ago
    I... need a guide or something. I expect I'll do more research this weekend, but just sitting and listening to myself breathe? I have plenty of calmness in my life, but surely there's a difference between meditation and relaxation? Sorry, not really directing this at you, its late, kinda just stream of consciousing before sleep. I do appreciate your response : )
    - 11y ago

RyanMcGreal 11y ago

> They began by focusing on the thought process that defines the disorder, which is known as rumination. (The verb is derived from the Latin word for “chewed over,” which describes the act of digestion in cattle, in which they swallow, regurgitate and then rechew their food.) In recent decades, psychiatry has come to see rumination as a dangerous mental habit, because it leads people to fixate on their flaws and problems, thus extending their negative moods. This really spoke to me. My mild tendency to depression seems to be predicated entirely on rumination. To the extent that I can avoid taking the first few slippery steps in those mental pathways that spiral down into despair, I am generally able to avoid getting dragged down. That required me to accept that some existential questions aren't answerable in any satisfactory manner, and to simply stop posing them to myself.