4 ms·

For anyone wondering about why it's being called "Magna Carta" instead of "the Magna Carta"... From Wikipdia: > Magna Carta was given its name in Latin, a lan

by javert 11y ago

For anyone wondering about why it's being called "Magna Carta" instead of "the Magna Carta"... From Wikipdia: > Magna Carta was given its name in Latin, a language which has no direct, consistent correlate of the English definite article "the". As a result, the usual academic convention is to refer to the document in English without the article as "Magna Carta" rather than "the Magna Carta". Of course, in proper English it's "the Magna Carta." The rules of Latin have no bearing on proper English. Also: We don't call Paris "Par-ee" like in French. Words in different languages are different words. "Magna Carta" just happens to be spelled the same in English and Latin. Leave it to the NYT to do the wrong but "fashionable" "academic" thing. At least we can count on that. Language is prescriptive, but I don't want to have that debate.

phaemon 11y ago
> Of course, in proper English it's "the Magna Carta." Nope. You don't say, "the Paris" now do you? There's no particular rule of when you use "the" before a name. As that notable academic, Tony Hancock, once asked, "Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?"
- javert 11y ago
  Legal documents are preceeded by "the" unless they are numbered. So: the Constitution, the Patriot Act, the Articles of Confederation, the Freedom of Information Act, the Federal Register. But: HB 289, Title IX, Proposition 8. This is probably just a species of a more general rule dealing with articles and things that have given names.
- smegel 11y ago
  > Nope. You don't say, "the Paris" now do you? Or New York. Or London. > There's no particular rule of when you use "the" before a name. Well I don't know if the rules cover all cases, but one rule is you don't use "the" before place names. Or given names "the Barack Obama". Titles are OK "the President of the USA". Clearly the names of "things" like books require the use of "the". Like "the Bible". It's important to distinguish between the "name" of a book and it's title. We clearly don't say "I read the To Kill a Mockingbird".
  - phaemon 11y ago
    But you do say, "The Congo" and "The Sahara", while you used to say "The Ukraine" but not any more. Names of things: "He appeared on television", "He started in radio", "He went to hospital", "He went to school". It's unclear whether Magna Carta is used as the title of the document or not: it seems to depend.
    - tragomaskhalos 11y ago
      Children go to school, even though we mean a specific school, yet adults go to the pub, even when we have no particular pub in mind. If there are rules behind this I certainly can't see them, and I'm sure foreign learners would agree :)
- spacehome 11y ago
  > There's no particular rule of when you use "the" before a name. In fact there are rules about when proper nouns require articles. While there are a few exceptions, and the rules are sort of tedious, they do exist, as proved by the fact that you usually (90+% of the time) know whether to use the article on a novel proper noun. Native speakers don't even know that they know the rules. I only learned through ESL education. You can get started on the list of rules in a few places, this being one: http://usefulenglish.ru/grammar/part-8-articles-with-miscellaneous-proper-names http://usefulenglish.ru/grammar/part-8-articles-with-miscell...
- sambeau 11y ago
  "Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you?"… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZosqiJISs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZosqiJISs
mc32 11y ago
Yeah, it's become so pervasive that it's not out of the ordinary for American reporters to say 'Mehiko" instead of Mexico while speaking an otherwise English sentence. Or they try to pronounce the surname Velazquez in Spanish, but when it comes to Van Gogh or 習近平, there is no attempt at native pronunciation. This kind of inconsistency is baffling --moreover their Spanish pronunciation is not Castillian even when the person is Spanish. So they are all over the map. I've been down to Mexico and I'm quite sure people don't try to pronounce 'Nueva York' as 'New York'. On the other hand, these same reporters mangle Chinese city names with abandon, so it's not as if they're just trying to say the names in a native fashion --which I guess at least would make some consistent sense.
- javert 11y ago
  Regarding Chinese city names, in the 2008 Olympics, newscasters were trying to use the Chinese name for the location instead of the English name (which is Beijing). It was horrible. It was incorrect. It was "politically correct."
  - creshal 11y ago
    > the English name (which is Beijing) Beijing? Peking? Pei-ching? Peiping? What is the correct spelling and what isn't for foreign names changes over time. (It's quite amusing how Germans go to great lengths to use the new, Polish names for cities in former Prussia, while for Belgian cities that haven't been under German control for much longer, they insist on German names.)
    - CPLX 11y ago
      Well in their defense my understanding is they had a somewhat embarrassing dust-up with Poland a few years back.
- calibraxis 11y ago
  I think it’s a tip-of-the-hat when you use another culture’s pronunciation. When I’m outside the US, sometimes people do that for me. When I’m speaking a foreign language, I may decide to pronounce an English word with (the so-called) General American accent.

by javert 11y ago

phaemon 11y ago

> Of course, in proper English it's "the Magna Carta." Nope. You don't say, "the Paris" now do you? There's no particular rule of when you use "the" before a name. As that notable academic, Tony Hancock, once asked, "Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?"

javert 11y ago
Legal documents are preceeded by "the" unless they are numbered. So: the Constitution, the Patriot Act, the Articles of Confederation, the Freedom of Information Act, the Federal Register. But: HB 289, Title IX, Proposition 8. This is probably just a species of a more general rule dealing with articles and things that have given names.
smegel 11y ago
> Nope. You don't say, "the Paris" now do you? Or New York. Or London. > There's no particular rule of when you use "the" before a name. Well I don't know if the rules cover all cases, but one rule is you don't use "the" before place names. Or given names "the Barack Obama". Titles are OK "the President of the USA". Clearly the names of "things" like books require the use of "the". Like "the Bible". It's important to distinguish between the "name" of a book and it's title. We clearly don't say "I read the To Kill a Mockingbird".
- phaemon 11y ago
  But you do say, "The Congo" and "The Sahara", while you used to say "The Ukraine" but not any more. Names of things: "He appeared on television", "He started in radio", "He went to hospital", "He went to school". It's unclear whether Magna Carta is used as the title of the document or not: it seems to depend.
  - tragomaskhalos 11y ago
    Children go to school, even though we mean a specific school, yet adults go to the pub, even when we have no particular pub in mind. If there are rules behind this I certainly can't see them, and I'm sure foreign learners would agree :)
spacehome 11y ago
> There's no particular rule of when you use "the" before a name. In fact there are rules about when proper nouns require articles. While there are a few exceptions, and the rules are sort of tedious, they do exist, as proved by the fact that you usually (90+% of the time) know whether to use the article on a novel proper noun. Native speakers don't even know that they know the rules. I only learned through ESL education. You can get started on the list of rules in a few places, this being one: http://usefulenglish.ru/grammar/part-8-articles-with-miscellaneous-proper-names http://usefulenglish.ru/grammar/part-8-articles-with-miscell...
sambeau 11y ago
"Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you?"… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZosqiJISs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZosqiJISs

mc32 11y ago

Yeah, it's become so pervasive that it's not out of the ordinary for American reporters to say 'Mehiko" instead of Mexico while speaking an otherwise English sentence. Or they try to pronounce the surname Velazquez in Spanish, but when it comes to Van Gogh or 習近平, there is no attempt at native pronunciation. This kind of inconsistency is baffling --moreover their Spanish pronunciation is not Castillian even when the person is Spanish. So they are all over the map. I've been down to Mexico and I'm quite sure people don't try to pronounce 'Nueva York' as 'New York'. On the other hand, these same reporters mangle Chinese city names with abandon, so it's not as if they're just trying to say the names in a native fashion --which I guess at least would make some consistent sense.

javert 11y ago
Regarding Chinese city names, in the 2008 Olympics, newscasters were trying to use the Chinese name for the location instead of the English name (which is Beijing). It was horrible. It was incorrect. It was "politically correct."
- creshal 11y ago
  > the English name (which is Beijing) Beijing? Peking? Pei-ching? Peiping? What is the correct spelling and what isn't for foreign names changes over time. (It's quite amusing how Germans go to great lengths to use the new, Polish names for cities in former Prussia, while for Belgian cities that haven't been under German control for much longer, they insist on German names.)
  - CPLX 11y ago
    Well in their defense my understanding is they had a somewhat embarrassing dust-up with Poland a few years back.
calibraxis 11y ago
I think it’s a tip-of-the-hat when you use another culture’s pronunciation. When I’m outside the US, sometimes people do that for me. When I’m speaking a foreign language, I may decide to pronounce an English word with (the so-called) General American accent.