5 ms·

Investing in Pirates

32 points by huangm 17y ago

pg 17y ago
"'I am waiting for my share after I contributed a rocket-propelled grenade for the operation,' she said, adding that she got the weapon from her ex-husband in alimony."
- yardie 17y ago
  I can't imagine how you go about getting a divorce in a country with no gov't and thus no court. Do you draw a line in the sand and say everything on this side is mine?
  - DrJokepu 17y ago
    Large parts of Somalia are governed by local Muslim groups. While divorce is not common in Islam and is generally condemned, it is possible in certain circumstances none the less. I imagine that the local religious leader can arrange a divorce, according to the Shari'ah.
    - eru 17y ago
      The catholics also do divorce sometimes. Though they do so by pretending that the marriage did never exist in the first place.
      - replicatorblog 17y ago
        This is an incorrect presentation of data. The process you describe is Anullment. The Catholic church permits the standard definition of divorce, but does not allow remarriage while the divorced spouse is still alive.
        eru 17y ago
        OK, thanks.
    - Evgeny 17y ago
      The triple talaq is a mechanism for divorce which exists in some forms of Islam. It simply consists of the husband saying the phrase I divorce you (Arabic:talaq) to the wife, three times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_talaq http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_talaq I definitely like the idea.
      - DrJokepu 17y ago
        The "triple talaq" is not as simple as just saying "talaq, talaq, talaq". First, it is generally condemned. Second, there must be a month between each "talaq", so the whole procedure takes up at least two months. For more info, see http://www.religioustolerance.org/mohd.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/mohd.htm
  - sp332 17y ago
    Marriage is, in many cultures, primarily a religious institution more than a state-governed issue.
kevingadd 17y ago
Thus far, it seems like most of this piracy has affected commercial shipping and civilian vessels. It seems likely that eventually, somebody is going to hijack the wrong boat and the owners will turn out to be willing to retaliate with excessive force, at which point innocent bystanders - for example, anyone else living in Haradheere - will get dragged into the conflict and lose their lives as a result.
- defen 17y ago
  > somebody is going to hijack the wrong boat and the owners will turn out to be willing to retaliate with excessive force It's been known to happen: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/lives/caesar*.html#2 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/l...
  - onoj 17y ago
    I talked with a shipping guy a while ago - they are used to paying "fines" of 25K up just to pass through. He also said that they never arm the ships - it would just lead to escalation and he did not want his crews harmed.
    - rick888 17y ago
      "I talked with a shipping guy a while ago - they are used to paying "fines" of 25K up just to pass through. He also said that they never arm the ships - it would just lead to escalation and he did not want his crews harmed." This isn't very smart. These pirates now know that there is little to no risk for them, which has led to what they mention in this article: a pirate business. These companies should use that 25K to hire a professional armed guard (or guards) to protect the shipments. They may not even have to shoot or kill anyone. Just the presence of weapons will make them think twice before attacking another ship.
- yardie 17y ago
  The ransom amount is minute compared to the value of the goods on board. It's gotten to the point where it's a regular business. You don't expect or assume they will start randomly gunning people down. Just pay the money and get the hell outta there. I also assume the pirates sort of know what they are looking for. It's pretty obvious which ships are armed navies and which aren't. Private companies aren't allowed to level a city unless the management want to be dragged down to the Hague for some 'splaining. And any cargo that is worth defending (nuclear, weapons, etc.) can hire mercenaries like Blackwater.
fwez 17y ago
I say let anarchy in Somalia run it's course. Notarized contracts will need to be drawn. A system of jurisprudence will need to be set up to enforce them. Pretty soon they will arrive to a social contract with a state (or something resembling a state backed by the big fish in that pond).
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- DrJokepu 17y ago
  Don't be so naive. A "social contract" can only exist if there's a large enough middle class, which is something Somalia (and East Africa in general) lacks. Unfortunately a more likely outcome will be the emergence of a few local warlords and a particularly bloody tribal war and a total humanitarian disaster. Don't forget that things have changed since the creation of "social contracts" in modern Western nations; genocide is a lot cheaper and simpler to execute than it used to be. These days all you need is to put four men equipped with cheap Russian-made machine guns into a jeep and they will exterminate a dozen villages in the course of an afternoon without breaking a sweat.
  - fwez 17y ago
    I stand corrected. I failed to take into account the effectiveness and efficiency of modern weapons. They assign disproportionate power to the top of the thugocracy (Saddam Hussein being an extreme example). Such a thugocracy can propagate itself brutally, suppressing the trickling down of wealth and development. The question that follows (and that I honestly don't know the answer to) is whether the invention of modern weapons was a historical tipping point that obliterated previous routes of national economic development. What if mechanized warfare had been invented before the rise of the West by a non-Western civilization and transferred (via trade) to the medieval European feudal lords. Would they have allowed the rise of the middle class in the West the way it did? "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do" -- Samuel Huntington. The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, p. 51.
daeken 17y ago
What I don't understand about investing in criminal activities is what's stopping them from taking the money and running. It seems to me that once you've done one job, you'll have plenty of money to continue your activities. Is it that other pirates will come after you, or is there just an insane amount of overhead that I don't see?

32 points by huangm 17y ago

pg 17y ago

"'I am waiting for my share after I contributed a rocket-propelled grenade for the operation,' she said, adding that she got the weapon from her ex-husband in alimony."

yardie 17y ago
I can't imagine how you go about getting a divorce in a country with no gov't and thus no court. Do you draw a line in the sand and say everything on this side is mine?
- DrJokepu 17y ago
  Large parts of Somalia are governed by local Muslim groups. While divorce is not common in Islam and is generally condemned, it is possible in certain circumstances none the less. I imagine that the local religious leader can arrange a divorce, according to the Shari'ah.
  - eru 17y ago
    The catholics also do divorce sometimes. Though they do so by pretending that the marriage did never exist in the first place.
    - replicatorblog 17y ago
      This is an incorrect presentation of data. The process you describe is Anullment. The Catholic church permits the standard definition of divorce, but does not allow remarriage while the divorced spouse is still alive.
      - eru 17y ago
        OK, thanks.
  - Evgeny 17y ago
    The triple talaq is a mechanism for divorce which exists in some forms of Islam. It simply consists of the husband saying the phrase I divorce you (Arabic:talaq) to the wife, three times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_talaq http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_talaq I definitely like the idea.
    - DrJokepu 17y ago
      The "triple talaq" is not as simple as just saying "talaq, talaq, talaq". First, it is generally condemned. Second, there must be a month between each "talaq", so the whole procedure takes up at least two months. For more info, see http://www.religioustolerance.org/mohd.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/mohd.htm
- sp332 17y ago
  Marriage is, in many cultures, primarily a religious institution more than a state-governed issue.

kevingadd 17y ago

Thus far, it seems like most of this piracy has affected commercial shipping and civilian vessels. It seems likely that eventually, somebody is going to hijack the wrong boat and the owners will turn out to be willing to retaliate with excessive force, at which point innocent bystanders - for example, anyone else living in Haradheere - will get dragged into the conflict and lose their lives as a result.

defen 17y ago
> somebody is going to hijack the wrong boat and the owners will turn out to be willing to retaliate with excessive force It's been known to happen: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/lives/caesar*.html#2 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/l...
- onoj 17y ago
  I talked with a shipping guy a while ago - they are used to paying "fines" of 25K up just to pass through. He also said that they never arm the ships - it would just lead to escalation and he did not want his crews harmed.
  - rick888 17y ago
    "I talked with a shipping guy a while ago - they are used to paying "fines" of 25K up just to pass through. He also said that they never arm the ships - it would just lead to escalation and he did not want his crews harmed." This isn't very smart. These pirates now know that there is little to no risk for them, which has led to what they mention in this article: a pirate business. These companies should use that 25K to hire a professional armed guard (or guards) to protect the shipments. They may not even have to shoot or kill anyone. Just the presence of weapons will make them think twice before attacking another ship.
yardie 17y ago
The ransom amount is minute compared to the value of the goods on board. It's gotten to the point where it's a regular business. You don't expect or assume they will start randomly gunning people down. Just pay the money and get the hell outta there. I also assume the pirates sort of know what they are looking for. It's pretty obvious which ships are armed navies and which aren't. Private companies aren't allowed to level a city unless the management want to be dragged down to the Hague for some 'splaining. And any cargo that is worth defending (nuclear, weapons, etc.) can hire mercenaries like Blackwater.

fwez 17y ago

I say let anarchy in Somalia run it's course. Notarized contracts will need to be drawn. A system of jurisprudence will need to be set up to enforce them. Pretty soon they will arrive to a social contract with a state (or something resembling a state backed by the big fish in that pond).

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
DrJokepu 17y ago
Don't be so naive. A "social contract" can only exist if there's a large enough middle class, which is something Somalia (and East Africa in general) lacks. Unfortunately a more likely outcome will be the emergence of a few local warlords and a particularly bloody tribal war and a total humanitarian disaster. Don't forget that things have changed since the creation of "social contracts" in modern Western nations; genocide is a lot cheaper and simpler to execute than it used to be. These days all you need is to put four men equipped with cheap Russian-made machine guns into a jeep and they will exterminate a dozen villages in the course of an afternoon without breaking a sweat.
- fwez 17y ago
  I stand corrected. I failed to take into account the effectiveness and efficiency of modern weapons. They assign disproportionate power to the top of the thugocracy (Saddam Hussein being an extreme example). Such a thugocracy can propagate itself brutally, suppressing the trickling down of wealth and development. The question that follows (and that I honestly don't know the answer to) is whether the invention of modern weapons was a historical tipping point that obliterated previous routes of national economic development. What if mechanized warfare had been invented before the rise of the West by a non-Western civilization and transferred (via trade) to the medieval European feudal lords. Would they have allowed the rise of the middle class in the West the way it did? "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do" -- Samuel Huntington. The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, p. 51.

daeken 17y ago

What I don't understand about investing in criminal activities is what's stopping them from taking the money and running. It seems to me that once you've done one job, you'll have plenty of money to continue your activities. Is it that other pirates will come after you, or is there just an insane amount of overhead that I don't see?