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Ah, another convenient use of "turns out". Fortunately, we are on hackernews so enough people are probably familiar with this very useful turn of phrase[0]. An

Ah, another convenient use of "turns out". Fortunately, we are on hackernews so enough people are probably familiar with this very useful turn of phrase[0]. Anyway, back to the topic. It turns out[0] muslim immigrants from troubled regions import their troubles. No, for sure 100%(choose a number) of them aren't the sort that shouts for sharia law, but hey you are going to be importing those. Then what happens? It starts affecting your day-to-day. I'm all for giving refuge. Hey, I'm an immigrant myself so I see all sorts of value in the arrangement. BUT, part of the reason I immigrated to get away from the crazies/troubles. I also have been able to contribute to my new country (oh the taxes). I am fairly well assimilated in my community and wouldn't dream of trying to change my current society to fit my previous one. It's sad that political correctness makes it impossible for people to have an actual debate about this without being labelled ignorant/small minded etcs. [0] http://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out http://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out

bayesianhorse 11y ago
Well, if you voice small-minded arguments, you do run a risk of being called out as small-minded. There is this strange belief among self-styled "immigration critics" that the fact that they have a minority opinion, is somehow proof of an unfair conversation. Bad news: You will always be judged by the things you say and the value system that is behind these things. Deal with it! I don't see evidence of Muslims changing European cultures in any significant way. Most don't even seem to try. Even the more religious ones seem to be content with being allowed to go to a mosque every once in a while...
- throwaway_coz 11y ago
  Maybe it's something you should think about that the first attack you can think of is an ad hominem one? I am not bemoaning having a minority opinion, rather the inevitable personal attacks that follow, yours being a benign but still pertinent example. And I'm not an immigration critic: I am totally in support of allowing immigration to the people who help the country. And, before you assume, that doesn't mean they have to be white or european. Note also that "help the country" can't just be defined by the usual hand-wavy bs of "diversity helps everyone" because you might as well say magic/underpant gnomes. Where do you live in Europe or US that you don't see these effects?
  - bayesianhorse 11y ago
    If you believe you have a right to throw Muslims out of Europe, which is the only way to stop increasing Muslim populations in Europe (short of genocide), then that is only possible by believing in racist assumptions (often disguised by calling them "facts"). Under democratic values, everyone is the same before the law. Therefore there have to be serious reasons to prosecute, hunt down, imprison and deport someone (and en passant destroying his livelihood, potentially his family, and causing misery and death). You essentially say that Muslims are in general not "useful", so they shouldn't have this protection. First of all, this is deeply anti-democratic and anti-freedom. But secondly, in this argumentation there is almost always a tendency to attach negative value to certain ethnicities. To deny human rights to an ethnically distinct group means to devalue them as human beings, and this is racism. And please don't say you don't want to get rid of Muslims... If that were really true, why are you complaining about them?
    - JesperRavn 11y ago
      So your logic is: if you say something negative about group X, then you must want to throw them out of your country, therefore you want to hunt them down, therefore you are are anti-democratic. Therefore there cannot be anything negative to say about group X.

bayesianhorse 11y ago

Well, if you voice small-minded arguments, you do run a risk of being called out as small-minded. There is this strange belief among self-styled "immigration critics" that the fact that they have a minority opinion, is somehow proof of an unfair conversation. Bad news: You will always be judged by the things you say and the value system that is behind these things. Deal with it! I don't see evidence of Muslims changing European cultures in any significant way. Most don't even seem to try. Even the more religious ones seem to be content with being allowed to go to a mosque every once in a while...

throwaway_coz 11y ago
Maybe it's something you should think about that the first attack you can think of is an ad hominem one? I am not bemoaning having a minority opinion, rather the inevitable personal attacks that follow, yours being a benign but still pertinent example. And I'm not an immigration critic: I am totally in support of allowing immigration to the people who help the country. And, before you assume, that doesn't mean they have to be white or european. Note also that "help the country" can't just be defined by the usual hand-wavy bs of "diversity helps everyone" because you might as well say magic/underpant gnomes. Where do you live in Europe or US that you don't see these effects?
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  If you believe you have a right to throw Muslims out of Europe, which is the only way to stop increasing Muslim populations in Europe (short of genocide), then that is only possible by believing in racist assumptions (often disguised by calling them "facts"). Under democratic values, everyone is the same before the law. Therefore there have to be serious reasons to prosecute, hunt down, imprison and deport someone (and en passant destroying his livelihood, potentially his family, and causing misery and death). You essentially say that Muslims are in general not "useful", so they shouldn't have this protection. First of all, this is deeply anti-democratic and anti-freedom. But secondly, in this argumentation there is almost always a tendency to attach negative value to certain ethnicities. To deny human rights to an ethnically distinct group means to devalue them as human beings, and this is racism. And please don't say you don't want to get rid of Muslims... If that were really true, why are you complaining about them?
  - JesperRavn 11y ago
    So your logic is: if you say something negative about group X, then you must want to throw them out of your country, therefore you want to hunt them down, therefore you are are anti-democratic. Therefore there cannot be anything negative to say about group X.