6 ms·

British spies 'moved after Snowden files read'

40 points by k-mcgrady 11y ago

bwilli123 11y ago
.."the Russians and the Chinese have all this information and as a result of that our spies are having to pull people out of the field because their lives are in danger." If the Russians and Chinese didn't previously know their identities (allegedly via Snowden) by subsequently extracting thespies we are confirming who they were and thus the ability to identify their former networks. Dammned if you, damned if you don't.
DennisP 11y ago
I'm wondering whether there's any way for journalists to verify this, and if not, why we should trust statements by the U.S. or U.K. governments on this topic, given their repeated falsehoods in the past.
- davepage 11y ago
  Sure... the Russians and Chinese (not the same people) just happened to simultaneously break some strong encryption, and the UK just happened to discover this somehow, before anything significant happened. Perfectly propaganda. Perhaps the next press release will claim, 'paying taxes reduces the risk of death by 42%!'
- thedatabase 11y ago
  Hmm. The UK has a Freedom of Information request process, much like the US (ie just as neutered). The request would be, essentially: "prove it". The hard part would be putting it in a form likely/able to be answered.
  - M2Ys4U 11y ago
    It won't be answered. Section 23 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000:[0] "Information held by a public authority is exempt information if it was directly or indirectly supplied to the public authority by, or relates to [...] the Government Communications Headquarters" [0]: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/section/23 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/section/23
comrade1 11y ago
Were the snowden files encrypted? If so, maybe an attack vector was the journalists. Or maybe we're confusing the wiki leaks insurance file with the snowden files?
pasta_2 11y ago
It was always a crock of shit to equate Snowden to the Pentagon Papers or the Watergate scandal, and this is why.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  Snowden having that level of access and the ability to siphon off so many documents undetected virtually guarantees that Russian/Chinese moles have been doing the same (without going to the press about it, naturally) for quite some time. The idea that they don't already have the data is a crock of shit.
cyphunk 11y ago
Ironically I thought the title meant "moved" as in "moved to tears". Anyway, you know how when one person shits in the pool everyone has to get out? GCHQ, NSA, you're that person and this is your moment.
scotchmi_st 11y ago
I can see 3 possible scenarios here. 1. Russia/China have got hold of the files, and know how to decrypt PGP (Very unlikely). 2. A journalist with access to the files and the encryption keys has left them lying around, or was cooerced into decrypting them. (Unlikely but possible). 3. Intelligence services are lying, possibly for political gain ahead of new legislation (specifically in the UK), and/or have fallen for a bluff by China and Russia. (Most likely).
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  I know he communicated with the journalists via PGP but do we know that all copies of the files were encrypted that way?
- cyphunk 11y ago
  4. A version left encrypted at any point and time on some old SSD or NAND cells that were then recovered, without journalist or other handlers aware this could happen. 5. GCHQ or NSA had same or similar documents lifted (umm... leveraging Office of Personnel Management or a similar type hack) and they are preparing a cover story. plenty of conspiracies to go around but as someone else said... until some proof is shown there's no reason to give much weight to the statement that individuals needed to be moved.
  - fweespeech 11y ago
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/chinese-hack-of-government-network-compromises-security-clearance-files/2015/06/12/9f91f146-1135-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/chines... I'd say its #5 honestly :p
- UVB-76 11y ago
  More likely is that the Snowden documents have been widely distributed in encrypted form (as one of the Wikileaks insurance releases) and Russia/China have managed to brute force the key.
  - 11y ago
alextgordon 11y ago
Are relations between Russia and China so cozy that they'd share intelligence of this magnitude? Alternatively, is it believable that they both miraculously broke the encryption at exactly the time?
username 11y ago
These are anonymous government sources. Can we really expect them to tell the truth? It seems more likely that these officials are exploiting the general public's lack of knowledge on this issue to turn them against Snowden and the journalists.
- revelation 11y ago
  It's getting really silly with these government sources speaking under the condition of anonymity. You would think journalists would have read, under the assumption that they lack the minimal intellect to see through the charade, some of the Snowden documents that clearly speak of using anonymous sources for more or less sophisticated psyop.
peteretep 11y ago
> we are told authoritatively by people in Downing Street, > in the Home Office, in the intelligence services It seems disingenuous to use the word "authoritatively" when talking about people with a huge stake in the game, who will at no point be willing to (or needing to) verify their claim.
- branchless 11y ago
  The UK govt have lied time and again. Weapons of mass destruction. BBC are also totally unreliable when it comes to the top level stuff. They get told what to write.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  Hell, they've been willing non-anonymously to lie to Congress to protect these programs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper#False_testimony_to_Congress_on_NSA_surveillance_programs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper#False_testimo...
- NN88 11y ago
  Yet you seem to think that Russia and China would never try to do just this...huh? The world isn't just this peaceful and happy place where only the USA is the big bad wolf.
  - jackweirdy 11y ago
    Don't know about the person you were replying to, but I suspect Russia and China would see Snowden and try to copy him (noticing that these agencies have terrible OPSEC) rather than attack him (knowing he's probably being very careful)
  - peteretep 11y ago
    Quite the opposite - I'm sure they are. I also have a huge amount of respect for and trust in my (UK) government and that they keep my best interests at heart. The word "authoritatively" just seems obviously wrong.
    - 11y ago
mladenkovacevic 11y ago
Dealing with the Snowden leaks has been priority #1 for these intelligence agencies. If they are desperate enough to use this kind of blatant propaganda, it frightens me to think about what their next move will be. Look for some very draconian laws to be rammed through as they try to keep the powers they've been enjoying without any challenges or oversights. And if that doesn't work: war.
alexandercrohde 11y ago
It sounds to me like the implication here is --Snowden disrupted our intelligence agencies by preventing us from crucial information, therefore he harmed our government--. The assumption being that America and it's allies are entitled to all the information we are stealing through spying. When a non-American ally spies on America it's a crime, but when America spies, stopping it is a crime? It's worth considering the idea that technological spying by procuring vulnerabilities without reporting perpetuates a technological arms race and concentrates power in the executive with no balance among other branches.
- IBM 11y ago
  I'm sorry but what in this article suggests that US/UK intelligence agencies spying is hypocritical in any way? Sovereign states have spied on each other for hundreds of years, long before the age of computers. When they're captured they are imprisoned or executed. There isn't anything hypocritical at all about conducting counter-intelligence while also trying to spy on others.
- meowface 11y ago
  That is not what sources in the article are claiming. >"Well, we are told authoritatively by people in Downing Street, in the Home Office, in the intelligence services that the Russians and the Chinese have all this information and as a result of that our spies are having to pull people out of the field because their lives are in danger." There is a line about also damaging ability to collect information, but this is a separate claim; allegedly, information in one or more of the million+ files could jeopardize lives of human intelligence people stationed in foreign countries.
aburan28 11y ago
These 'sources' also forgot to mention that he took 900,000 documents not 1.7 million per the official DIA analysis http://cryptome.org/2015/06/dia-snowden-vice-15-0604.pdf http://cryptome.org/2015/06/dia-snowden-vice-15-0604.pdf
strathmeyer 11y ago
I assume this is to coverup the government's other mistakes. (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/06/the-hacking-of-federal-data-is-much-worse-than-first-thought/395807/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/06/the-hack...)
miscellaneous 11y ago
Is it common practice for a newspaper to essentially reprint an article from another publication, without seeking a response from the (accused) parties? I would expect at the very least for the BBC to seek a response from Snowden/Greenwald/theGuardian/etc before publishing this article with subheadings like: >'Hostile Countries' >'Huge Setback'
- pcrh 11y ago
  In the UK there is little pretense that any journalistic publication is truly objective, so the tradition is for opposing parties to use different channels in the media.
deepnet 11y ago
The level of access Snowden accrued may be symptomatic of structural access failure. Chelsea Manning, too, got away with a considerable amount of material. Surely other state actors would have moles at these levels - so they probably got all this stuff as well. Security by obscurity may be a bad rule to follow at the state level - in the future we may need to know we are safe and not trust spies or wonks with our safety. Cryptography needs to be provably secure. Perhaps safety should be? Which raises the question can National Security be performed transparently ? Was the hack of GMail by China attributed to a NSA backdoor ? The real problem may be general to any government department that lacks oversight - total and utter incompetence. No-one has publicly hacked Greenwald - the secret services have been caught with their pants down at least twice. The BBC reports Russia and China have cracked encryption implemented by Snowden. From what I read about Snowden it seems he would have used the best publicly available crypto and so that is quite a considerable claim. Conclusion : leaks are more likely to come from the leaky sieve. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/3662a707-0af9-3149-963f-47bea720b460 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/3662a707-0af9-... I cite Adam Curtis : "Maybe the real state secret is that spies aren't very good at their job and don't know very much about the world" These super secret departments get more funding and power when there is more terror not less. The career incentives of the intelligence classes may not align particularly well with actual national security.
aestetix 11y ago
Link to the original article that BBC gleaned from: https://archive.is/BkuMM https://archive.is/BkuMM
adamnemecek 11y ago
Who's ballsy enough to message /u/SuddenlySnowden (https://www.reddit.com/user/SuddenlySnowden https://www.reddit.com/user/SuddenlySnowden).
NN88 11y ago
Annnnd Treason.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
NN88 11y ago
This is why he should have stuck to the domestic stuff...but nooooo
- Sideloader 11y ago
  You are assuming Snowden is responsible...because the government says so? That massive security breach, of course, couldn't possibly have anything to do with this, and it absolutely isn't a case of using Snowden as the scapegoat for government incompetence. Our governments are completely trustworthy and would never lie to "their" citizens.
richmarr 11y ago
If the US & UK governments really didn't want these documents ending up in Russian hands, maybe they shouldn't have, ummm, chased him to... y'know... Russia.
Sideloader 11y ago
It is disconcerting how blatantly parroting the official government line without question has become SOP at "respectable" western media organizations. They are increasingly becoming propaganda outlets for the state. See also any article about Russia, NATO and the Ukraine.

40 points by k-mcgrady 11y ago

.."the Russians and the Chinese have all this information and as a result of that our spies are having to pull people out of the field because their lives are in danger." If the Russians and Chinese didn't previously know their identities (allegedly via Snowden) by subsequently extracting thespies we are confirming who they were and thus the ability to identify their former networks. Dammned if you, damned if you don't.

DennisP 11y ago

I'm wondering whether there's any way for journalists to verify this, and if not, why we should trust statements by the U.S. or U.K. governments on this topic, given their repeated falsehoods in the past.

davepage 11y ago
Sure... the Russians and Chinese (not the same people) just happened to simultaneously break some strong encryption, and the UK just happened to discover this somehow, before anything significant happened. Perfectly propaganda. Perhaps the next press release will claim, 'paying taxes reduces the risk of death by 42%!'
thedatabase 11y ago
Hmm. The UK has a Freedom of Information request process, much like the US (ie just as neutered). The request would be, essentially: "prove it". The hard part would be putting it in a form likely/able to be answered.
- M2Ys4U 11y ago
  It won't be answered. Section 23 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000:[0] "Information held by a public authority is exempt information if it was directly or indirectly supplied to the public authority by, or relates to [...] the Government Communications Headquarters" [0]: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/section/23 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/section/23

comrade1 11y ago

Were the snowden files encrypted? If so, maybe an attack vector was the journalists. Or maybe we're confusing the wiki leaks insurance file with the snowden files?

pasta_2 11y ago

It was always a crock of shit to equate Snowden to the Pentagon Papers or the Watergate scandal, and this is why.

ceejayoz 11y ago
Snowden having that level of access and the ability to siphon off so many documents undetected virtually guarantees that Russian/Chinese moles have been doing the same (without going to the press about it, naturally) for quite some time. The idea that they don't already have the data is a crock of shit.

cyphunk 11y ago

Ironically I thought the title meant "moved" as in "moved to tears". Anyway, you know how when one person shits in the pool everyone has to get out? GCHQ, NSA, you're that person and this is your moment.

scotchmi_st 11y ago

I can see 3 possible scenarios here. 1. Russia/China have got hold of the files, and know how to decrypt PGP (Very unlikely). 2. A journalist with access to the files and the encryption keys has left them lying around, or was cooerced into decrypting them. (Unlikely but possible). 3. Intelligence services are lying, possibly for political gain ahead of new legislation (specifically in the UK), and/or have fallen for a bluff by China and Russia. (Most likely).

k-mcgrady 11y ago
I know he communicated with the journalists via PGP but do we know that all copies of the files were encrypted that way?
cyphunk 11y ago
4. A version left encrypted at any point and time on some old SSD or NAND cells that were then recovered, without journalist or other handlers aware this could happen. 5. GCHQ or NSA had same or similar documents lifted (umm... leveraging Office of Personnel Management or a similar type hack) and they are preparing a cover story. plenty of conspiracies to go around but as someone else said... until some proof is shown there's no reason to give much weight to the statement that individuals needed to be moved.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/chinese-hack-of-government-network-compromises-security-clearance-files/2015/06/12/9f91f146-1135-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/chines... I'd say its #5 honestly :p
UVB-76 11y ago
More likely is that the Snowden documents have been widely distributed in encrypted form (as one of the Wikileaks insurance releases) and Russia/China have managed to brute force the key.
- 11y ago

alextgordon 11y ago

Are relations between Russia and China so cozy that they'd share intelligence of this magnitude? Alternatively, is it believable that they both miraculously broke the encryption at exactly the time?

username 11y ago

These are anonymous government sources. Can we really expect them to tell the truth? It seems more likely that these officials are exploiting the general public's lack of knowledge on this issue to turn them against Snowden and the journalists.

revelation 11y ago
It's getting really silly with these government sources speaking under the condition of anonymity. You would think journalists would have read, under the assumption that they lack the minimal intellect to see through the charade, some of the Snowden documents that clearly speak of using anonymous sources for more or less sophisticated psyop.

peteretep 11y ago

> we are told authoritatively by people in Downing Street, > in the Home Office, in the intelligence services It seems disingenuous to use the word "authoritatively" when talking about people with a huge stake in the game, who will at no point be willing to (or needing to) verify their claim.

branchless 11y ago
The UK govt have lied time and again. Weapons of mass destruction. BBC are also totally unreliable when it comes to the top level stuff. They get told what to write.
ceejayoz 11y ago
Hell, they've been willing non-anonymously to lie to Congress to protect these programs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper#False_testimony_to_Congress_on_NSA_surveillance_programs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper#False_testimo...
NN88 11y ago
Yet you seem to think that Russia and China would never try to do just this...huh? The world isn't just this peaceful and happy place where only the USA is the big bad wolf.
- jackweirdy 11y ago
  Don't know about the person you were replying to, but I suspect Russia and China would see Snowden and try to copy him (noticing that these agencies have terrible OPSEC) rather than attack him (knowing he's probably being very careful)
- peteretep 11y ago
  Quite the opposite - I'm sure they are. I also have a huge amount of respect for and trust in my (UK) government and that they keep my best interests at heart. The word "authoritatively" just seems obviously wrong.
  - 11y ago

mladenkovacevic 11y ago

Dealing with the Snowden leaks has been priority #1 for these intelligence agencies. If they are desperate enough to use this kind of blatant propaganda, it frightens me to think about what their next move will be. Look for some very draconian laws to be rammed through as they try to keep the powers they've been enjoying without any challenges or oversights. And if that doesn't work: war.

alexandercrohde 11y ago

It sounds to me like the implication here is --Snowden disrupted our intelligence agencies by preventing us from crucial information, therefore he harmed our government--. The assumption being that America and it's allies are entitled to all the information we are stealing through spying. When a non-American ally spies on America it's a crime, but when America spies, stopping it is a crime? It's worth considering the idea that technological spying by procuring vulnerabilities without reporting perpetuates a technological arms race and concentrates power in the executive with no balance among other branches.

IBM 11y ago
I'm sorry but what in this article suggests that US/UK intelligence agencies spying is hypocritical in any way? Sovereign states have spied on each other for hundreds of years, long before the age of computers. When they're captured they are imprisoned or executed. There isn't anything hypocritical at all about conducting counter-intelligence while also trying to spy on others.
meowface 11y ago
That is not what sources in the article are claiming. >"Well, we are told authoritatively by people in Downing Street, in the Home Office, in the intelligence services that the Russians and the Chinese have all this information and as a result of that our spies are having to pull people out of the field because their lives are in danger." There is a line about also damaging ability to collect information, but this is a separate claim; allegedly, information in one or more of the million+ files could jeopardize lives of human intelligence people stationed in foreign countries.

aburan28 11y ago

These 'sources' also forgot to mention that he took 900,000 documents not 1.7 million per the official DIA analysis http://cryptome.org/2015/06/dia-snowden-vice-15-0604.pdf http://cryptome.org/2015/06/dia-snowden-vice-15-0604.pdf

strathmeyer 11y ago

I assume this is to coverup the government's other mistakes. (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/06/the-hacking-of-federal-data-is-much-worse-than-first-thought/395807/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/06/the-hack...)

miscellaneous 11y ago

Is it common practice for a newspaper to essentially reprint an article from another publication, without seeking a response from the (accused) parties? I would expect at the very least for the BBC to seek a response from Snowden/Greenwald/theGuardian/etc before publishing this article with subheadings like: >'Hostile Countries' >'Huge Setback'

pcrh 11y ago
In the UK there is little pretense that any journalistic publication is truly objective, so the tradition is for opposing parties to use different channels in the media.

deepnet 11y ago

The level of access Snowden accrued may be symptomatic of structural access failure. Chelsea Manning, too, got away with a considerable amount of material. Surely other state actors would have moles at these levels - so they probably got all this stuff as well. Security by obscurity may be a bad rule to follow at the state level - in the future we may need to know we are safe and not trust spies or wonks with our safety. Cryptography needs to be provably secure. Perhaps safety should be? Which raises the question can National Security be performed transparently ? Was the hack of GMail by China attributed to a NSA backdoor ? The real problem may be general to any government department that lacks oversight - total and utter incompetence. No-one has publicly hacked Greenwald - the secret services have been caught with their pants down at least twice. The BBC reports Russia and China have cracked encryption implemented by Snowden. From what I read about Snowden it seems he would have used the best publicly available crypto and so that is quite a considerable claim. Conclusion : leaks are more likely to come from the leaky sieve. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/3662a707-0af9-3149-963f-47bea720b460 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/3662a707-0af9-... I cite Adam Curtis : "Maybe the real state secret is that spies aren't very good at their job and don't know very much about the world" These super secret departments get more funding and power when there is more terror not less. The career incentives of the intelligence classes may not align particularly well with actual national security.

aestetix 11y ago

Link to the original article that BBC gleaned from: https://archive.is/BkuMM https://archive.is/BkuMM

adamnemecek 11y ago

Who's ballsy enough to message /u/SuddenlySnowden (https://www.reddit.com/user/SuddenlySnowden https://www.reddit.com/user/SuddenlySnowden).

NN88 11y ago

Annnnd Treason.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

NN88 11y ago

This is why he should have stuck to the domestic stuff...but nooooo

Sideloader 11y ago
You are assuming Snowden is responsible...because the government says so? That massive security breach, of course, couldn't possibly have anything to do with this, and it absolutely isn't a case of using Snowden as the scapegoat for government incompetence. Our governments are completely trustworthy and would never lie to "their" citizens.

richmarr 11y ago

If the US & UK governments really didn't want these documents ending up in Russian hands, maybe they shouldn't have, ummm, chased him to... y'know... Russia.

Sideloader 11y ago

It is disconcerting how blatantly parroting the official government line without question has become SOP at "respectable" western media organizations. They are increasingly becoming propaganda outlets for the state. See also any article about Russia, NATO and the Ukraine.