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>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk a

by lllllll 11y ago

>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in Europe. >> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace. However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.

bayesianhorse 11y ago
For me, opening ethnically themed restaurants and food joints does not count as "influence of islam". At best it is an economic contribution of people who happen to be muslim. Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. Walking on the street is no influence on Culture. Even a fully cloaked woman does not hinder my sense of European culture. They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case. I'm not aware of islamic parties with any significant influence, at least in western Europe, despite I would think there is a need for one. There is currently no way to solve the multiple crisis which are displacing people. At least not without actually displacing much more people.
- lllllll 11y ago
  IMO a culture is not just a set of protocols or rules written down by some chronist/sociologist. To me culture is more about how people live in a certain place, their routines, their customs. Again, I'm not particularly talking about Muslim population, but since you continue with them, I will do the same :) (I guess it's an easy example since they are really a big community all around EU) Now take any East London borough with a high % of Muslim. If you compare it with how it was let's say in the 80's you will probably see several differences in: the language most people talk to each other in, the way kids are educated at home, the way people interact with their local store owners, the food people eat, dress codes, etc. If a person from a distant remote place visits that same borough in the 80's and today he will see two culturally different places. That's because the inhabitants of the place, make the culture. That's my view! This reply is just intended to challenge your view that big numbers of immigrants has no influence on the culture of a country/city/place/population. I'm not implying that borough was better in the 80's than now! >>Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. I really don't know where you draw the "fair representation" line. E.g. Greater London has 650k Muslims, and around 411 mosques. That's roughly 1400 Muslims/mosque. What would be a fair representation in your opinion? In contrast there are 450k Hindus in Greater London, and I couldn't find the number of temples in any source, but I'd guess it's around a few tens. Maybe this is an unfair comparison since a temple is much more of a requirement for Muslims than for Hindus, I really don't know that. >> They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case. They raise their kids with "their" rules, which is not even theirs, it's basically dictated by some kind of dogma. These kids will be the future generation of that place.
  - bayesianhorse 11y ago
    My statement was that "Islam" has virtually no influence on Europe culture. First of all, that doesn't include everything a Muslim does, for me, Islam is a religion with values and rules. The mere existence of Muslims following their own cultures in Europe does not constitute an influence in its own. Not even when they interact with other Europeans. Influence on European Culture would mean that Europeans change to adapt to Islamic beliefs. Which they largely don't, except sometimes in very negative ways. You probably overestimate population trends... Yes, the Muslim population will increase, but not without bounds and much less than some people seem to believe...
    - lllllll 11y ago
      It seems to me that you have not read my answer at all...You don't address any of my points/questions either. Also, I do not estimate any trend, so technically I can't overestimate...
      - bayesianhorse 11y ago
        because you didn't consider my statement. Specifically "Islam" instead of "individual Muslim" and "on European Culture", not that Muslims exist in Europe.
DanBC 11y ago
> Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. So in England there are the traditional corner shops that sell some food (mostly not fresh), confectionary, alcohol and soft drinks, newspapers, and cigarettes. (And, in the past, porn.) It's pretty hard to find the Islamic influence of those shops.
- lllllll 11y ago
  I replied to @bayesianhorse about this similar topic, above. :)

by lllllll 11y ago

bayesianhorse 11y ago

For me, opening ethnically themed restaurants and food joints does not count as "influence of islam". At best it is an economic contribution of people who happen to be muslim. Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. Walking on the street is no influence on Culture. Even a fully cloaked woman does not hinder my sense of European culture. They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case. I'm not aware of islamic parties with any significant influence, at least in western Europe, despite I would think there is a need for one. There is currently no way to solve the multiple crisis which are displacing people. At least not without actually displacing much more people.

lllllll 11y ago
IMO a culture is not just a set of protocols or rules written down by some chronist/sociologist. To me culture is more about how people live in a certain place, their routines, their customs. Again, I'm not particularly talking about Muslim population, but since you continue with them, I will do the same :) (I guess it's an easy example since they are really a big community all around EU) Now take any East London borough with a high % of Muslim. If you compare it with how it was let's say in the 80's you will probably see several differences in: the language most people talk to each other in, the way kids are educated at home, the way people interact with their local store owners, the food people eat, dress codes, etc. If a person from a distant remote place visits that same borough in the 80's and today he will see two culturally different places. That's because the inhabitants of the place, make the culture. That's my view! This reply is just intended to challenge your view that big numbers of immigrants has no influence on the culture of a country/city/place/population. I'm not implying that borough was better in the 80's than now! >>Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. I really don't know where you draw the "fair representation" line. E.g. Greater London has 650k Muslims, and around 411 mosques. That's roughly 1400 Muslims/mosque. What would be a fair representation in your opinion? In contrast there are 450k Hindus in Greater London, and I couldn't find the number of temples in any source, but I'd guess it's around a few tens. Maybe this is an unfair comparison since a temple is much more of a requirement for Muslims than for Hindus, I really don't know that. >> They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case. They raise their kids with "their" rules, which is not even theirs, it's basically dictated by some kind of dogma. These kids will be the future generation of that place.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  My statement was that "Islam" has virtually no influence on Europe culture. First of all, that doesn't include everything a Muslim does, for me, Islam is a religion with values and rules. The mere existence of Muslims following their own cultures in Europe does not constitute an influence in its own. Not even when they interact with other Europeans. Influence on European Culture would mean that Europeans change to adapt to Islamic beliefs. Which they largely don't, except sometimes in very negative ways. You probably overestimate population trends... Yes, the Muslim population will increase, but not without bounds and much less than some people seem to believe...
  - lllllll 11y ago
    It seems to me that you have not read my answer at all...You don't address any of my points/questions either. Also, I do not estimate any trend, so technically I can't overestimate...
    - bayesianhorse 11y ago
      because you didn't consider my statement. Specifically "Islam" instead of "individual Muslim" and "on European Culture", not that Muslims exist in Europe.

DanBC 11y ago

> Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. So in England there are the traditional corner shops that sell some food (mostly not fresh), confectionary, alcohol and soft drinks, newspapers, and cigarettes. (And, in the past, porn.) It's pretty hard to find the Islamic influence of those shops.

lllllll 11y ago
I replied to @bayesianhorse about this similar topic, above. :)