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Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel dilut

Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. That holds even when both are muslim.

trhway 11y ago
>No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. what about the crimes committed with approval, in the name and by the power vested by the other humans? When these other humans shield and harbor the committer of the crime?
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  Aiding and abetting terrorists can be and is punished. Sympathy for IS or similar groups/countries is a whole different story. As long as they are at best voicing their support, or not even that, it's really difficult and contra-productive to prosecute. If you want to morally condemn every Muslim for sympathizing with IS, you should keep in mind that most people fighting them are Muslim. You also should keep in mind that most Muslims don't sympathize with these kind of crimes or terrorism in general....
Conjoiner 11y ago
Causing the rape statistics to shoot through the roof is a bit of an impact.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  So Islam commands them have to rape Western woman? Most Muslim scholars would disagree. I actually agree that Muslim immigrants are more prone to commit this kind of crime. That doesn't mean it's an Islam thing. It also doesn't mean innocent Muslims can be treated any worse because some of them commit crimes. Trying to solve this problem by blaming their religion is not going to lead anywhere good.
lllllll 11y ago
>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in Europe. >> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace. However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  For me, opening ethnically themed restaurants and food joints does not count as "influence of islam". At best it is an economic contribution of people who happen to be muslim. Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. Walking on the street is no influence on Culture. Even a fully cloaked woman does not hinder my sense of European culture. They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case. I'm not aware of islamic parties with any significant influence, at least in western Europe, despite I would think there is a need for one. There is currently no way to solve the multiple crisis which are displacing people. At least not without actually displacing much more people.
  - lllllll 11y ago
    IMO a culture is not just a set of protocols or rules written down by some chronist/sociologist. To me culture is more about how people live in a certain place, their routines, their customs. Again, I'm not particularly talking about Muslim population, but since you continue with them, I will do the same :) (I guess it's an easy example since they are really a big community all around EU) Now take any East London borough with a high % of Muslim. If you compare it with how it was let's say in the 80's you will probably see several differences in: the language most people talk to each other in, the way kids are educated at home, the way people interact with their local store owners, the food people eat, dress codes, etc. If a person from a distant remote place visits that same borough in the 80's and today he will see two culturally different places. That's because the inhabitants of the place, make the culture. That's my view! This reply is just intended to challenge your view that big numbers of immigrants has no influence on the culture of a country/city/place/population. I'm not implying that borough was better in the 80's than now! >>Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. I really don't know where you draw the "fair representation" line. E.g. Greater London has 650k Muslims, and around 411 mosques. That's roughly 1400 Muslims/mosque. What would be a fair representation in your opinion? In contrast there are 450k Hindus in Greater London, and I couldn't find the number of temples in any source, but I'd guess it's around a few tens. Maybe this is an unfair comparison since a temple is much more of a requirement for Muslims than for Hindus, I really don't know that. >> They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case. They raise their kids with "their" rules, which is not even theirs, it's basically dictated by some kind of dogma. These kids will be the future generation of that place.
throwaway_coz 11y ago
Ah, another convenient use of "turns out". Fortunately, we are on hackernews so enough people are probably familiar with this very useful turn of phrase[0]. Anyway, back to the topic. It turns out[0] muslim immigrants from troubled regions import their troubles. No, for sure 100%(choose a number) of them aren't the sort that shouts for sharia law, but hey you are going to be importing those. Then what happens? It starts affecting your day-to-day. I'm all for giving refuge. Hey, I'm an immigrant myself so I see all sorts of value in the arrangement. BUT, part of the reason I immigrated to get away from the crazies/troubles. I also have been able to contribute to my new country (oh the taxes). I am fairly well assimilated in my community and wouldn't dream of trying to change my current society to fit my previous one. It's sad that political correctness makes it impossible for people to have an actual debate about this without being labelled ignorant/small minded etcs. [0] http://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out http://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  Well, if you voice small-minded arguments, you do run a risk of being called out as small-minded. There is this strange belief among self-styled "immigration critics" that the fact that they have a minority opinion, is somehow proof of an unfair conversation. Bad news: You will always be judged by the things you say and the value system that is behind these things. Deal with it! I don't see evidence of Muslims changing European cultures in any significant way. Most don't even seem to try. Even the more religious ones seem to be content with being allowed to go to a mosque every once in a while...
  - throwaway_coz 11y ago
    Maybe it's something you should think about that the first attack you can think of is an ad hominem one? I am not bemoaning having a minority opinion, rather the inevitable personal attacks that follow, yours being a benign but still pertinent example. And I'm not an immigration critic: I am totally in support of allowing immigration to the people who help the country. And, before you assume, that doesn't mean they have to be white or european. Note also that "help the country" can't just be defined by the usual hand-wavy bs of "diversity helps everyone" because you might as well say magic/underpant gnomes. Where do you live in Europe or US that you don't see these effects?
aikah 11y ago
> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. You absolutely don't know that. Can you point to a specific study? then you just made it up. Turns out you are making stuff up for the sake of shutting down the discussion.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  I don't know of any Muslim/Islamic party in Western Europe. Mosques are underrepresented, in terms of followers. There is no indication, that Western Europeans are converting to Islam in droves. Food is not a cultural influence of Islam, but of the particular ethnicity and home countries, not the religion. At best the amount of pork consumed by Europeans may be negatively affected... Really, considering the number of Muslims, they don't seem to have any political cloud beyond being present. Most Muslim politicians I think of virtually ignore religious topics.

trhway 11y ago

>No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. what about the crimes committed with approval, in the name and by the power vested by the other humans? When these other humans shield and harbor the committer of the crime?

bayesianhorse 11y ago
Aiding and abetting terrorists can be and is punished. Sympathy for IS or similar groups/countries is a whole different story. As long as they are at best voicing their support, or not even that, it's really difficult and contra-productive to prosecute. If you want to morally condemn every Muslim for sympathizing with IS, you should keep in mind that most people fighting them are Muslim. You also should keep in mind that most Muslims don't sympathize with these kind of crimes or terrorism in general....

Conjoiner 11y ago

Causing the rape statistics to shoot through the roof is a bit of an impact.

bayesianhorse 11y ago
So Islam commands them have to rape Western woman? Most Muslim scholars would disagree. I actually agree that Muslim immigrants are more prone to commit this kind of crime. That doesn't mean it's an Islam thing. It also doesn't mean innocent Muslims can be treated any worse because some of them commit crimes. Trying to solve this problem by blaming their religion is not going to lead anywhere good.

lllllll 11y ago

>> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in Europe. >> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace. However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.

bayesianhorse 11y ago
For me, opening ethnically themed restaurants and food joints does not count as "influence of islam". At best it is an economic contribution of people who happen to be muslim. Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. Walking on the street is no influence on Culture. Even a fully cloaked woman does not hinder my sense of European culture. They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case. I'm not aware of islamic parties with any significant influence, at least in western Europe, despite I would think there is a need for one. There is currently no way to solve the multiple crisis which are displacing people. At least not without actually displacing much more people.
- lllllll 11y ago
  IMO a culture is not just a set of protocols or rules written down by some chronist/sociologist. To me culture is more about how people live in a certain place, their routines, their customs. Again, I'm not particularly talking about Muslim population, but since you continue with them, I will do the same :) (I guess it's an easy example since they are really a big community all around EU) Now take any East London borough with a high % of Muslim. If you compare it with how it was let's say in the 80's you will probably see several differences in: the language most people talk to each other in, the way kids are educated at home, the way people interact with their local store owners, the food people eat, dress codes, etc. If a person from a distant remote place visits that same borough in the 80's and today he will see two culturally different places. That's because the inhabitants of the place, make the culture. That's my view! This reply is just intended to challenge your view that big numbers of immigrants has no influence on the culture of a country/city/place/population. I'm not implying that borough was better in the 80's than now! >>Mosques are very underrepresented, considering the number of muslim, and they have to fight for every single one. I really don't know where you draw the "fair representation" line. E.g. Greater London has 650k Muslims, and around 411 mosques. That's roughly 1400 Muslims/mosque. What would be a fair representation in your opinion? In contrast there are 450k Hindus in Greater London, and I couldn't find the number of temples in any source, but I'd guess it's around a few tens. Maybe this is an unfair comparison since a temple is much more of a requirement for Muslims than for Hindus, I really don't know that. >> They don't make anyone else follow their rules, in any case. They raise their kids with "their" rules, which is not even theirs, it's basically dictated by some kind of dogma. These kids will be the future generation of that place.

throwaway_coz 11y ago

Ah, another convenient use of "turns out". Fortunately, we are on hackernews so enough people are probably familiar with this very useful turn of phrase[0]. Anyway, back to the topic. It turns out[0] muslim immigrants from troubled regions import their troubles. No, for sure 100%(choose a number) of them aren't the sort that shouts for sharia law, but hey you are going to be importing those. Then what happens? It starts affecting your day-to-day. I'm all for giving refuge. Hey, I'm an immigrant myself so I see all sorts of value in the arrangement. BUT, part of the reason I immigrated to get away from the crazies/troubles. I also have been able to contribute to my new country (oh the taxes). I am fairly well assimilated in my community and wouldn't dream of trying to change my current society to fit my previous one. It's sad that political correctness makes it impossible for people to have an actual debate about this without being labelled ignorant/small minded etcs. [0] http://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out http://jsomers.net/blog/it-turns-out

bayesianhorse 11y ago
Well, if you voice small-minded arguments, you do run a risk of being called out as small-minded. There is this strange belief among self-styled "immigration critics" that the fact that they have a minority opinion, is somehow proof of an unfair conversation. Bad news: You will always be judged by the things you say and the value system that is behind these things. Deal with it! I don't see evidence of Muslims changing European cultures in any significant way. Most don't even seem to try. Even the more religious ones seem to be content with being allowed to go to a mosque every once in a while...
- throwaway_coz 11y ago
  Maybe it's something you should think about that the first attack you can think of is an ad hominem one? I am not bemoaning having a minority opinion, rather the inevitable personal attacks that follow, yours being a benign but still pertinent example. And I'm not an immigration critic: I am totally in support of allowing immigration to the people who help the country. And, before you assume, that doesn't mean they have to be white or european. Note also that "help the country" can't just be defined by the usual hand-wavy bs of "diversity helps everyone" because you might as well say magic/underpant gnomes. Where do you live in Europe or US that you don't see these effects?

aikah 11y ago

> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. You absolutely don't know that. Can you point to a specific study? then you just made it up. Turns out you are making stuff up for the sake of shutting down the discussion.

bayesianhorse 11y ago
I don't know of any Muslim/Islamic party in Western Europe. Mosques are underrepresented, in terms of followers. There is no indication, that Western Europeans are converting to Islam in droves. Food is not a cultural influence of Islam, but of the particular ethnicity and home countries, not the religion. At best the amount of pork consumed by Europeans may be negatively affected... Really, considering the number of Muslims, they don't seem to have any political cloud beyond being present. Most Muslim politicians I think of virtually ignore religious topics.