5 ms·

It's unfortunate to me that it is impossible to have a discussion about how this kind of immigration dilutes European culture and identity. The prime minister

It's unfortunate to me that it is impossible to have a discussion about how this kind of immigration dilutes European culture and identity. The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, said[0] If we don't stop their entry, the problem that currently stands at 60,000 could grow to 600,000, and that threatens our existence as a Jewish and democratic state ... This phenomenon is very grave and threatens the social fabric of society, our national security and our national identity. While he has come under some criticism for these statements, can you imagine what would happen if a European prime minister made this kind of statement? [0] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-netanyahu-african-immigrants-jewish http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-netanyah...

nsns 11y ago
"dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing those exact völkisch sentiments he now preaches. I know from personal experience that there are many Israelis who share this view and are appalled by his words [0]. [0] http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/ http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. That holds even when both are muslim.
  - trhway 11y ago
    >No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. what about the crimes committed with approval, in the name and by the power vested by the other humans? When these other humans shield and harbor the committer of the crime?
    - bayesianhorse 11y ago
      Aiding and abetting terrorists can be and is punished. Sympathy for IS or similar groups/countries is a whole different story. As long as they are at best voicing their support, or not even that, it's really difficult and contra-productive to prosecute. If you want to morally condemn every Muslim for sympathizing with IS, you should keep in mind that most people fighting them are Muslim. You also should keep in mind that most Muslims don't sympathize with these kind of crimes or terrorism in general....
  - Conjoiner 11y ago
    Causing the rape statistics to shoot through the roof is a bit of an impact.
    - bayesianhorse 11y ago
      So Islam commands them have to rape Western woman? Most Muslim scholars would disagree. I actually agree that Muslim immigrants are more prone to commit this kind of crime. That doesn't mean it's an Islam thing. It also doesn't mean innocent Muslims can be treated any worse because some of them commit crimes. Trying to solve this problem by blaming their religion is not going to lead anywhere good.
  - lllllll 11y ago
    >> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in Europe. >> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace. However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  I think it's clear what I mean by dilution. When everyone has a similar viewpoint and cultural practices, it is much easier to maintain this when there are not large number of immigrants. It's true that there are critics of Netanyahu. However his views are not extreme in Israeli politics, and he is not considered a pariah internationally. On the contrary, the news source "972 magazine" would be considered a political pariah in the US for its support of the BDS movement.
- throwaway_coz 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure every person[0] would choose their sense of "undiluted identity" when push came to shove. Why? Because fear of the unknown is a thing and muslims have been vilified a lot. Anyway, Israel is very aware of the dilution effects. After all, they have been exploiting it (and much stronger arm techniques) to carve out their country. [0] Unless you are Ghandi.
bayesianhorse 11y ago
First of all, Israel is a special case. It has been founded artificially on a land that was predominantly inhabited by muslims, surrounded by countries predominantly inhabited by muslims. I won't dive into any discussion if that was a good idea, or if they were right to do that, I am just stating that a lot of non-muslims streamed into a place where there were lots of muslims. The idea that this jewish state, would manage to keep out the majority population in the region without some major "ethnic cleansing" is ridiculous. In Europe it's the other way around. The large majority here is not muslim, and there is a small (yes, it's tiny compared to the whole population) influx of muslims. There is no reason to fear a islamification of Europe. The numbers just don't allow it.
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  I never said that Europe would be "Islamified", although Europe is projected to be 8% Muslim by 2030[0], and not all immigration is from Islamic countries. For reference, Israel is 21% Muslim[1]. If your suburb becomes 50% muslim, it's certainly going to have a big effect even if other parts of the country remain unaffected. I don't see how your argument about geography works. Not everyone in a neighboring country is going to try to claim refugee status. Netanyahu was referring to 60,000 refugees but this was a total over many years, while Sweden, a country of similar population size to Israel, accepted 31,000 refugees in 2014 [2] and will accept even more in 2015. [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-abou... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel [2] http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/Facts-and-statistics-/Statistics/2014.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-A...
  - lllllll 11y ago
    >> If your suburb becomes 50% muslim, it's certainly going to have a big effect even if other parts of the country remain unaffected. This.
    - 11y ago

nsns 11y ago

"dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing those exact völkisch sentiments he now preaches. I know from personal experience that there are many Israelis who share this view and are appalled by his words [0]. [0] http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/ http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/

bayesianhorse 11y ago
Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. That holds even when both are muslim.
- trhway 11y ago
  >No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. what about the crimes committed with approval, in the name and by the power vested by the other humans? When these other humans shield and harbor the committer of the crime?
  - bayesianhorse 11y ago
    Aiding and abetting terrorists can be and is punished. Sympathy for IS or similar groups/countries is a whole different story. As long as they are at best voicing their support, or not even that, it's really difficult and contra-productive to prosecute. If you want to morally condemn every Muslim for sympathizing with IS, you should keep in mind that most people fighting them are Muslim. You also should keep in mind that most Muslims don't sympathize with these kind of crimes or terrorism in general....
- Conjoiner 11y ago
  Causing the rape statistics to shoot through the roof is a bit of an impact.
  - bayesianhorse 11y ago
    So Islam commands them have to rape Western woman? Most Muslim scholars would disagree. I actually agree that Muslim immigrants are more prone to commit this kind of crime. That doesn't mean it's an Islam thing. It also doesn't mean innocent Muslims can be treated any worse because some of them commit crimes. Trying to solve this problem by blaming their religion is not going to lead anywhere good.
- lllllll 11y ago
  >> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in Europe. >> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace. However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.
JesperRavn 11y ago
I think it's clear what I mean by dilution. When everyone has a similar viewpoint and cultural practices, it is much easier to maintain this when there are not large number of immigrants. It's true that there are critics of Netanyahu. However his views are not extreme in Israeli politics, and he is not considered a pariah internationally. On the contrary, the news source "972 magazine" would be considered a political pariah in the US for its support of the BDS movement.
throwaway_coz 11y ago
I'm pretty sure every person[0] would choose their sense of "undiluted identity" when push came to shove. Why? Because fear of the unknown is a thing and muslims have been vilified a lot. Anyway, Israel is very aware of the dilution effects. After all, they have been exploiting it (and much stronger arm techniques) to carve out their country. [0] Unless you are Ghandi.

bayesianhorse 11y ago

First of all, Israel is a special case. It has been founded artificially on a land that was predominantly inhabited by muslims, surrounded by countries predominantly inhabited by muslims. I won't dive into any discussion if that was a good idea, or if they were right to do that, I am just stating that a lot of non-muslims streamed into a place where there were lots of muslims. The idea that this jewish state, would manage to keep out the majority population in the region without some major "ethnic cleansing" is ridiculous. In Europe it's the other way around. The large majority here is not muslim, and there is a small (yes, it's tiny compared to the whole population) influx of muslims. There is no reason to fear a islamification of Europe. The numbers just don't allow it.

JesperRavn 11y ago
I never said that Europe would be "Islamified", although Europe is projected to be 8% Muslim by 2030[0], and not all immigration is from Islamic countries. For reference, Israel is 21% Muslim[1]. If your suburb becomes 50% muslim, it's certainly going to have a big effect even if other parts of the country remain unaffected. I don't see how your argument about geography works. Not everyone in a neighboring country is going to try to claim refugee status. Netanyahu was referring to 60,000 refugees but this was a total over many years, while Sweden, a country of similar population size to Israel, accepted 31,000 refugees in 2014 [2] and will accept even more in 2015. [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-abou... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel [2] http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/Facts-and-statistics-/Statistics/2014.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-A...
- lllllll 11y ago
  >> If your suburb becomes 50% muslim, it's certainly going to have a big effect even if other parts of the country remain unaffected. This.
  - 11y ago