4 ms·

Just about any article about India or China, someone will comment, I wonder if it's due to their population. If you take off your "suspicious" glasses and think

by chengiz 11y ago

Just about any article about India or China, someone will comment, I wonder if it's due to their population. If you take off your "suspicious" glasses and think about it for a minute, you will realize that not saying please and thank you does not make you socially graceless in any absolute sense. There is no "default" socially graceful behaviour. Cultures differ.

greggman 11y ago
It's not about saying please and thank you. It's about actions. Chinese mainland tourists stick out like a sore thumb in Tokyo in particular. They are very loud and extremely rude in behavior. They don't seem to give a care about local customs or expectations at all. They are maximally selfish around others shoving their way in, cutting in lines, blocking walkways, ... Example: It's hard to imagine any way in which just throwing trash in the street it's not an obviously bad thing. Sure it might be their culture to do that but it doesn't take a whole lot of logic to see it's untenable. It also doesn't take a whole lot of logic to see that always acting like you're the most important person and never caring about others is untenable.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  > It's hard to imagine any way in which just throwing trash in the street it's not an obviously bad thing. Well, you might consider it an "upgrade" from the old behavior of tossing trash into people's open windows as you walked by.
  - vorg 11y ago
    Dropping trash in the street in parts of China is showing concern that everyone has a job, including street cleaners. The custom's changing in cities where labor costs are higher though.
    - nsomaru 11y ago
      Have never understood this attitude, I've heard it before where I'm from. You're littering to make sure people are employed? Really?
      - thaumasiotes 11y ago
        Seems like a fairly direct application of the broken windows fallacy.
      - Retra 11y ago
        "I smear feces on the walls in public restrooms. No point in paying city janitors for doing nothing! If nobody committed crimes, we'd lose all our police..."
      - mazerackham 11y ago
        Yes really. You just don't understand what it's like to live in such a heavily populated country
- mistermann 11y ago
  I'll never forget my last visit to Japan, waiting in a long hour plus line to go through customs - everyone from any country I observed was well behaved and queued in the proper form, except (some) Chinese - every time a gap opened, they would budge, they would literally even go around you in line if you paused for a moment. And once at the front of the line, they'd try to jump over to another line's open counter. Shameless, blatant opportunism. If you were generous, you might say "they just don't know any better", but I'm not generous. And if it is "just a few bad eggs" as is commonly claimed by "all cultures are precisely equal" advocates, then why don't some of their fellow righteous countrymen speak up and say something?
  - msie 11y ago
    Well, they have. You just didnt notice or havent seen it.
  - mazerackham 11y ago
    so, are you implying that Chinese as a people are rude and lack civility? Because that's what your "contribution" to this discussion implies. Not just a few bad eggs, but an entire 1+ billion people. If I were generous, I might say "you just don't know any better to think critically at a higher level", but I'm not generous. I'm saying "you are a moron". There we go.
    - mistermann 11y ago
      > so, are you implying that Chinese as a people are rude and lack civility? Because that's what your "contribution" to this discussion implies. Not just a few bad eggs, but an entire 1+ billion people. No, and you know I'm not saying that. I am stating just one example of the obvious, that cultures are different - it's the topic of this thread after all, remember? You seem to imply that all cultures are either the same, or at least "equal", down to the individual level (you have a proportionally equal chance of meeting a rude Japanese person compared to a rude Chinese/American/whatever.) From another thread in this conversation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712181 > Ancient China had tons of courtesy in social interactions, and used to consider other countries uncivilized. The lack of courtesy in Mainland China is due to the communist revolution, which promoted tough fighting mentality to break social hierarchy and order, and threw away traditional values. It's an aggressive way of promoting equality. The revolution is over since Chairman Mao left. Now that the Communist Party is the governing party, the emphasis is hierarchy and order, or in a better sounding word -- stability, so that they can stay in power forever. They try to bring back traditional values, but the revolutionary damages are hard to overcome. Is this commenter also unable to "think critically at a higher level"? Are you of the opinion that the cultural revolutions in China had no effect on culture? When you visit different countries, do you genuinely not notice a noteworthy difference in behaviors? EDIT: Just by coincidence, came across this comment in a Japanese food thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/food/comments/39qpcn/didnt_fly_first_class_didnt_eat_caviar_or_eat/cs5reya https://www.reddit.com/r/food/comments/39qpcn/didnt_fly_firs... As far as safety, there are 3 crimes per year per 10,000 residents. That compares with St. Louis' 800+ per 10,000 residents. I would like to think that those 3 crimes/10,000 residents in Japan were executed by tourists. No one locks their bikes. $2000 bikes just sitting around. I've never felt safer in my life. Japan is wonderful. That fellow also seems to detect a cultural difference between countries. 250x higher crime rate in St. Louis vs Japan. $2000 unlocked bikes, and no one steals them. Is he making this stuff up? If we were to look up crime statistics by country, would 100% of the difference be only because of people not reporting crimes where the statistical rate is lower? The levels of political correctness these days is absolutely ridiculous.
- mazerackham 11y ago
  Try to understand for a second why that might be. Is it because Chinese people are inherently rude? I hope you don't answer yes to that. Everything happens for a reason, and just because it violates your fragile ideals of grace and politeness doesn't mean that the behavior is rude. In fact, I personally think it's pretty rude to characterize 1 billion people as "maximally selfish"
- chengiz 11y ago
  Yes I know that Chinese and Indians do not have a civic sense and have a resistance to follow queues. This is again not some absolute thing, but a result of their upbringing. Given enough time in the new place, they will earn its social rules. The snap judgements made in such cases do more to harm the case than help it. For example, American waitpeople and airhostesses are often rude to me just because I am Indian. Forget rude, 3/4 times at a restaurant we have to ask for a new seat, because they seat us at the worst spot (near kitchen, toilets), I suppose because "Indians don't tip well". Guess what, if you put us in the worst seat in the restaurant because we don't tip well, we won't! In any case the comment I replied to specifically talked of social graces mentioned in the article, ie. saying please and thank you.
beachstartup 11y ago
china has a lot of hicks that came up on new money and now travel around acting terribly. you never notice the upper class tourists that blend in. the problem is they have so many of the lower class ones, nothing else matters.

by chengiz 11y ago

greggman 11y ago

It's not about saying please and thank you. It's about actions. Chinese mainland tourists stick out like a sore thumb in Tokyo in particular. They are very loud and extremely rude in behavior. They don't seem to give a care about local customs or expectations at all. They are maximally selfish around others shoving their way in, cutting in lines, blocking walkways, ... Example: It's hard to imagine any way in which just throwing trash in the street it's not an obviously bad thing. Sure it might be their culture to do that but it doesn't take a whole lot of logic to see it's untenable. It also doesn't take a whole lot of logic to see that always acting like you're the most important person and never caring about others is untenable.

thaumasiotes 11y ago
> It's hard to imagine any way in which just throwing trash in the street it's not an obviously bad thing. Well, you might consider it an "upgrade" from the old behavior of tossing trash into people's open windows as you walked by.
- vorg 11y ago
  Dropping trash in the street in parts of China is showing concern that everyone has a job, including street cleaners. The custom's changing in cities where labor costs are higher though.
  - nsomaru 11y ago
    Have never understood this attitude, I've heard it before where I'm from. You're littering to make sure people are employed? Really?
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      Seems like a fairly direct application of the broken windows fallacy.
    - Retra 11y ago
      "I smear feces on the walls in public restrooms. No point in paying city janitors for doing nothing! If nobody committed crimes, we'd lose all our police..."
    - mazerackham 11y ago
      Yes really. You just don't understand what it's like to live in such a heavily populated country
mistermann 11y ago
I'll never forget my last visit to Japan, waiting in a long hour plus line to go through customs - everyone from any country I observed was well behaved and queued in the proper form, except (some) Chinese - every time a gap opened, they would budge, they would literally even go around you in line if you paused for a moment. And once at the front of the line, they'd try to jump over to another line's open counter. Shameless, blatant opportunism. If you were generous, you might say "they just don't know any better", but I'm not generous. And if it is "just a few bad eggs" as is commonly claimed by "all cultures are precisely equal" advocates, then why don't some of their fellow righteous countrymen speak up and say something?
- msie 11y ago
  Well, they have. You just didnt notice or havent seen it.
- mazerackham 11y ago
  so, are you implying that Chinese as a people are rude and lack civility? Because that's what your "contribution" to this discussion implies. Not just a few bad eggs, but an entire 1+ billion people. If I were generous, I might say "you just don't know any better to think critically at a higher level", but I'm not generous. I'm saying "you are a moron". There we go.
  - mistermann 11y ago
    > so, are you implying that Chinese as a people are rude and lack civility? Because that's what your "contribution" to this discussion implies. Not just a few bad eggs, but an entire 1+ billion people. No, and you know I'm not saying that. I am stating just one example of the obvious, that cultures are different - it's the topic of this thread after all, remember? You seem to imply that all cultures are either the same, or at least "equal", down to the individual level (you have a proportionally equal chance of meeting a rude Japanese person compared to a rude Chinese/American/whatever.) From another thread in this conversation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712181 > Ancient China had tons of courtesy in social interactions, and used to consider other countries uncivilized. The lack of courtesy in Mainland China is due to the communist revolution, which promoted tough fighting mentality to break social hierarchy and order, and threw away traditional values. It's an aggressive way of promoting equality. The revolution is over since Chairman Mao left. Now that the Communist Party is the governing party, the emphasis is hierarchy and order, or in a better sounding word -- stability, so that they can stay in power forever. They try to bring back traditional values, but the revolutionary damages are hard to overcome. Is this commenter also unable to "think critically at a higher level"? Are you of the opinion that the cultural revolutions in China had no effect on culture? When you visit different countries, do you genuinely not notice a noteworthy difference in behaviors? EDIT: Just by coincidence, came across this comment in a Japanese food thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/food/comments/39qpcn/didnt_fly_first_class_didnt_eat_caviar_or_eat/cs5reya https://www.reddit.com/r/food/comments/39qpcn/didnt_fly_firs... As far as safety, there are 3 crimes per year per 10,000 residents. That compares with St. Louis' 800+ per 10,000 residents. I would like to think that those 3 crimes/10,000 residents in Japan were executed by tourists. No one locks their bikes. $2000 bikes just sitting around. I've never felt safer in my life. Japan is wonderful. That fellow also seems to detect a cultural difference between countries. 250x higher crime rate in St. Louis vs Japan. $2000 unlocked bikes, and no one steals them. Is he making this stuff up? If we were to look up crime statistics by country, would 100% of the difference be only because of people not reporting crimes where the statistical rate is lower? The levels of political correctness these days is absolutely ridiculous.
mazerackham 11y ago
Try to understand for a second why that might be. Is it because Chinese people are inherently rude? I hope you don't answer yes to that. Everything happens for a reason, and just because it violates your fragile ideals of grace and politeness doesn't mean that the behavior is rude. In fact, I personally think it's pretty rude to characterize 1 billion people as "maximally selfish"
chengiz 11y ago
Yes I know that Chinese and Indians do not have a civic sense and have a resistance to follow queues. This is again not some absolute thing, but a result of their upbringing. Given enough time in the new place, they will earn its social rules. The snap judgements made in such cases do more to harm the case than help it. For example, American waitpeople and airhostesses are often rude to me just because I am Indian. Forget rude, 3/4 times at a restaurant we have to ask for a new seat, because they seat us at the worst spot (near kitchen, toilets), I suppose because "Indians don't tip well". Guess what, if you put us in the worst seat in the restaurant because we don't tip well, we won't! In any case the comment I replied to specifically talked of social graces mentioned in the article, ie. saying please and thank you.

beachstartup 11y ago

china has a lot of hicks that came up on new money and now travel around acting terribly. you never notice the upper class tourists that blend in. the problem is they have so many of the lower class ones, nothing else matters.