5 ms·

Ah yes, embracing your inner elitist.

by Dewie3 11y ago

xvedejas 11y ago
The desire to have a community and shared culture doesn't make one elitist. The GP could have as easily said they found bookish people they could relate to by becoming a librarian. Would that have sounded elitist or was the MIT name-dropping what upsets you?
jkestner 11y ago
That response is why I usually censor myself.
- Dewie3 11y ago
  Avoiding name-dropping things in largely irrelevant contexts must be very hard. How do you even manage to be yourself?
  - javajosh 11y ago
    If you two were friends, this might come across as playful ribbing ('taking the piss' as they say in the UK). But since I don't think you are friends, it comes across as mean, on your part. And you demonstrate (usefully, I think) the mistake of confusing complex and/or erudite speech/vocab with arrogance. But actually, I think the "attribution of arrogance" is a post hoc rationalization. In truth, some people feel utterly threatened by complex, erudite speech. It is hard to be confronted with a person who is having a thought that, without a lifetime of reading with intellectual curiosity (and a good memory), cannot be fully appreciated. Speaking intelligently can be (often is) like serving a plate of delicate, complex food in front of someone who isn't interested in this "pansy bullshit" and just wants a hot dog. And it hurts the same way, because what you prepared for them really is amazing, and not only is the effort not appreciated, but the recipient interprets the offer as an insult. This is a very painful experience, and you learn to take great care to learn who is expecting a gourmet conversation and who is not.
    - Dewie3 11y ago
      > And you demonstrate (usefully, I think) the mistake of confusing complex and/or erudite speech/vocab with arrogance. There is nothing complex, hard to understand or erudite about "I went to MIT", "my wife is well-read" or "as a nerd being among other nerds is nice". Though I guess having studied at MIT implies that you have great knowledge, so is erudite in that kind of indirect way. As to the rest of your post, I do not (mis)attribute speech which shows that the person is intelligent or knows things that I don't understand at all. I am comfortable with that. The person has to also come off as trying to show off, as opposed to just talking about what they're interested in. But I appreciate your stab at an analysis of my insecurities. And yes I had to look up what erudite means. > Speaking intelligently can be (often is) like serving a plate of delicate, complex food in front of someone who isn't interested in this "pansy bullshit" and just wants a hot dog. And it hurts the same way, because what you prepared for them really is amazing, and not only is the effort not appreciated, but the recipient interprets the offer as an insult. This is a very painful experience, and you learn to take great care to learn who is expecting a gourmet conversation and who is not. This thinking often leads to elitist attitudes. Some things are more complex or harder to get into than other things. That doesn't mean that they are superior to entertain. It might show that the person who appreciates them has a certain intellect, or whatever, but not ttat the thing itself is inherently good. I used to think this way about a certain medium - why can't people appreciate this thing that I showed them? Can't they see that it is better crafted, more thought out, more beautiful than that other thing that they are currently interested in? Then I stopped looking at it as a matter of appreciating ever-more complex, hard and well-crafted things and just as appreciating the thing for itself. If two people enjoy two different things equally, does it matter which one is superior by some objective standard? No. It's just a bullshit distraction.
    - sombremesa 11y ago
      While I understand where you're coming from and agree to some extent, I think there is a difference between "speaking `intelligently`", "having an intelligent conversation" and "leaving a comment on the internet". I would argue that there is no such thing as the first without the second, because you are not 'speaking `intelligently`' if there is no one who understands you and is able to make a conversant reply. In such a case you are only being arrogant.
  - carc 11y ago
    The insecurity is strong with this one. You're projecting that the person's literary references are "name dropping things in largely irrelevant contexts". There is no basis for this assumption, other than your obvious bias to jump to the conclusion that this person is elitist and goes out of their way to seem elitist. Why? Are you sensitive that you didn't get into a school like MIT? Neither did I, but nothing he is saying comes across as even remotely elitist to me. You're really just coming across as a jerk.
    - Dewie3 11y ago
      Thanks for the feedback. > You're projecting that the person's literary references are "name dropping things in largely irrelevant contexts". I wasn't talking about literary references. > and goes out of their way to seem elitist. The goal of someone who is elitist isn't really to come across as elitist, dude... > Are you sensitive that you didn't get into a school like MIT? I got into the school that I applied for. No, you haven't heard of it; no, it isn't prestigious. See, this is the thing with elitism. It is easy to dismiss people that are put off by it as jealousy. If I am put off by someone who thinks he is hot shit for listening to Mozart, it's not because I have anything against classical music or people who listen to classical music. It is because I don't like people who thinks they are special for listening to <thing>.
nugget 11y ago
Is it elitist to want to be around other kids you can mentally relate to? I suffered in school until I transferred to a 7th grade public magnet school. For the first time in my life I felt like I belonged because I could be myself with the other kids, most of whom happened to be from poor immigrant families (it is not a class or culture issue).
onion2k 11y ago
It's not elitist to like something that makes you happy, even if that thing is being around a group of wealthy, intelligent people. Elitism is about how you treat the other people. Being elitist would mean refusing to socialise with any group other than the one MIT crowd because they're too 'dumb' to be fun around. I don't think that's what jkestner is suggesting; that he found a group he's happy with doesn't mean he refuses contact with the other groups.
gumby 11y ago
"Elite" simply means "drawn out of the larger pool". Sure, there is a lot of social baggage around that word, as in a sense of superiority, but the in the general case there is no such implication. What's wrong with hanging around with folks who get your jokes (and vice versa)? They don't have to form the totality of your identity. Somehow it seems uncontroversial when someone finds a group of, say, fans of their favorite team (or rock band) and says, "now I am with my people!" Is there some peculiar difference in regards to books or maths jokes?

Ah yes, embracing your inner elitist.

by Dewie3 11y ago

Ah yes, embracing your inner elitist.

The desire to have a community and shared culture doesn't make one elitist. The GP could have as easily said they found bookish people they could relate to by becoming a librarian. Would that have sounded elitist or was the MIT name-dropping what upsets you?

jkestner 11y ago

That response is why I usually censor myself.

Dewie3 11y ago
Avoiding name-dropping things in largely irrelevant contexts must be very hard. How do you even manage to be yourself?
- javajosh 11y ago
  If you two were friends, this might come across as playful ribbing ('taking the piss' as they say in the UK). But since I don't think you are friends, it comes across as mean, on your part. And you demonstrate (usefully, I think) the mistake of confusing complex and/or erudite speech/vocab with arrogance. But actually, I think the "attribution of arrogance" is a post hoc rationalization. In truth, some people feel utterly threatened by complex, erudite speech. It is hard to be confronted with a person who is having a thought that, without a lifetime of reading with intellectual curiosity (and a good memory), cannot be fully appreciated. Speaking intelligently can be (often is) like serving a plate of delicate, complex food in front of someone who isn't interested in this "pansy bullshit" and just wants a hot dog. And it hurts the same way, because what you prepared for them really is amazing, and not only is the effort not appreciated, but the recipient interprets the offer as an insult. This is a very painful experience, and you learn to take great care to learn who is expecting a gourmet conversation and who is not.
  - Dewie3 11y ago
    > And you demonstrate (usefully, I think) the mistake of confusing complex and/or erudite speech/vocab with arrogance. There is nothing complex, hard to understand or erudite about "I went to MIT", "my wife is well-read" or "as a nerd being among other nerds is nice". Though I guess having studied at MIT implies that you have great knowledge, so is erudite in that kind of indirect way. As to the rest of your post, I do not (mis)attribute speech which shows that the person is intelligent or knows things that I don't understand at all. I am comfortable with that. The person has to also come off as trying to show off, as opposed to just talking about what they're interested in. But I appreciate your stab at an analysis of my insecurities. And yes I had to look up what erudite means. > Speaking intelligently can be (often is) like serving a plate of delicate, complex food in front of someone who isn't interested in this "pansy bullshit" and just wants a hot dog. And it hurts the same way, because what you prepared for them really is amazing, and not only is the effort not appreciated, but the recipient interprets the offer as an insult. This is a very painful experience, and you learn to take great care to learn who is expecting a gourmet conversation and who is not. This thinking often leads to elitist attitudes. Some things are more complex or harder to get into than other things. That doesn't mean that they are superior to entertain. It might show that the person who appreciates them has a certain intellect, or whatever, but not ttat the thing itself is inherently good. I used to think this way about a certain medium - why can't people appreciate this thing that I showed them? Can't they see that it is better crafted, more thought out, more beautiful than that other thing that they are currently interested in? Then I stopped looking at it as a matter of appreciating ever-more complex, hard and well-crafted things and just as appreciating the thing for itself. If two people enjoy two different things equally, does it matter which one is superior by some objective standard? No. It's just a bullshit distraction.
  - sombremesa 11y ago
    While I understand where you're coming from and agree to some extent, I think there is a difference between "speaking `intelligently`", "having an intelligent conversation" and "leaving a comment on the internet". I would argue that there is no such thing as the first without the second, because you are not 'speaking `intelligently`' if there is no one who understands you and is able to make a conversant reply. In such a case you are only being arrogant.
- carc 11y ago
  The insecurity is strong with this one. You're projecting that the person's literary references are "name dropping things in largely irrelevant contexts". There is no basis for this assumption, other than your obvious bias to jump to the conclusion that this person is elitist and goes out of their way to seem elitist. Why? Are you sensitive that you didn't get into a school like MIT? Neither did I, but nothing he is saying comes across as even remotely elitist to me. You're really just coming across as a jerk.
  - Dewie3 11y ago
    Thanks for the feedback. > You're projecting that the person's literary references are "name dropping things in largely irrelevant contexts". I wasn't talking about literary references. > and goes out of their way to seem elitist. The goal of someone who is elitist isn't really to come across as elitist, dude... > Are you sensitive that you didn't get into a school like MIT? I got into the school that I applied for. No, you haven't heard of it; no, it isn't prestigious. See, this is the thing with elitism. It is easy to dismiss people that are put off by it as jealousy. If I am put off by someone who thinks he is hot shit for listening to Mozart, it's not because I have anything against classical music or people who listen to classical music. It is because I don't like people who thinks they are special for listening to <thing>.

nugget 11y ago

Is it elitist to want to be around other kids you can mentally relate to? I suffered in school until I transferred to a 7th grade public magnet school. For the first time in my life I felt like I belonged because I could be myself with the other kids, most of whom happened to be from poor immigrant families (it is not a class or culture issue).

onion2k 11y ago

It's not elitist to like something that makes you happy, even if that thing is being around a group of wealthy, intelligent people. Elitism is about how you treat the other people. Being elitist would mean refusing to socialise with any group other than the one MIT crowd because they're too 'dumb' to be fun around. I don't think that's what jkestner is suggesting; that he found a group he's happy with doesn't mean he refuses contact with the other groups.

gumby 11y ago

"Elite" simply means "drawn out of the larger pool". Sure, there is a lot of social baggage around that word, as in a sense of superiority, but the in the general case there is no such implication. What's wrong with hanging around with folks who get your jokes (and vice versa)? They don't have to form the totality of your identity. Somehow it seems uncontroversial when someone finds a group of, say, fans of their favorite team (or rock band) and says, "now I am with my people!" Is there some peculiar difference in regards to books or maths jokes?