8 ms·

Journey: A refugee's odyssey from Syria to Sweden

55 points by winta 11y ago

JesperRavn 11y ago
It's unfortunate to me that it is impossible to have a discussion about how this kind of immigration dilutes European culture and identity. The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, said[0] If we don't stop their entry, the problem that currently stands at 60,000 could grow to 600,000, and that threatens our existence as a Jewish and democratic state ... This phenomenon is very grave and threatens the social fabric of society, our national security and our national identity. While he has come under some criticism for these statements, can you imagine what would happen if a European prime minister made this kind of statement? [0] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-netanyahu-african-immigrants-jewish http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-netanyah...
- nsns 11y ago
  "dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing those exact völkisch sentiments he now preaches. I know from personal experience that there are many Israelis who share this view and are appalled by his words [0]. [0] http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/ http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/
  - bayesianhorse 11y ago
    Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. That holds even when both are muslim.
    - trhway 11y ago
      >No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. what about the crimes committed with approval, in the name and by the power vested by the other humans? When these other humans shield and harbor the committer of the crime?
      - bayesianhorse 11y ago
        Aiding and abetting terrorists can be and is punished. Sympathy for IS or similar groups/countries is a whole different story. As long as they are at best voicing their support, or not even that, it's really difficult and contra-productive to prosecute. If you want to morally condemn every Muslim for sympathizing with IS, you should keep in mind that most people fighting them are Muslim. You also should keep in mind that most Muslims don't sympathize with these kind of crimes or terrorism in general....
    - Conjoiner 11y ago
      Causing the rape statistics to shoot through the roof is a bit of an impact.
      - bayesianhorse 11y ago
        So Islam commands them have to rape Western woman? Most Muslim scholars would disagree. I actually agree that Muslim immigrants are more prone to commit this kind of crime. That doesn't mean it's an Islam thing. It also doesn't mean innocent Muslims can be treated any worse because some of them commit crimes. Trying to solve this problem by blaming their religion is not going to lead anywhere good.
    - lllllll 11y ago
      >> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in Europe. >> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace. However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.
  - JesperRavn 11y ago
    I think it's clear what I mean by dilution. When everyone has a similar viewpoint and cultural practices, it is much easier to maintain this when there are not large number of immigrants. It's true that there are critics of Netanyahu. However his views are not extreme in Israeli politics, and he is not considered a pariah internationally. On the contrary, the news source "972 magazine" would be considered a political pariah in the US for its support of the BDS movement.
  - throwaway_coz 11y ago
    I'm pretty sure every person[0] would choose their sense of "undiluted identity" when push came to shove. Why? Because fear of the unknown is a thing and muslims have been vilified a lot. Anyway, Israel is very aware of the dilution effects. After all, they have been exploiting it (and much stronger arm techniques) to carve out their country. [0] Unless you are Ghandi.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  First of all, Israel is a special case. It has been founded artificially on a land that was predominantly inhabited by muslims, surrounded by countries predominantly inhabited by muslims. I won't dive into any discussion if that was a good idea, or if they were right to do that, I am just stating that a lot of non-muslims streamed into a place where there were lots of muslims. The idea that this jewish state, would manage to keep out the majority population in the region without some major "ethnic cleansing" is ridiculous. In Europe it's the other way around. The large majority here is not muslim, and there is a small (yes, it's tiny compared to the whole population) influx of muslims. There is no reason to fear a islamification of Europe. The numbers just don't allow it.
  - JesperRavn 11y ago
    I never said that Europe would be "Islamified", although Europe is projected to be 8% Muslim by 2030[0], and not all immigration is from Islamic countries. For reference, Israel is 21% Muslim[1]. If your suburb becomes 50% muslim, it's certainly going to have a big effect even if other parts of the country remain unaffected. I don't see how your argument about geography works. Not everyone in a neighboring country is going to try to claim refugee status. Netanyahu was referring to 60,000 refugees but this was a total over many years, while Sweden, a country of similar population size to Israel, accepted 31,000 refugees in 2014 [2] and will accept even more in 2015. [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-abou... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel [2] http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/Facts-and-statistics-/Statistics/2014.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-A...
    - lllllll 11y ago
      >> If your suburb becomes 50% muslim, it's certainly going to have a big effect even if other parts of the country remain unaffected. This.
      - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ads_are_shite 11y ago
I spoke with a colleague the other day and he made a reasonable point - the number of people reaching the shore is huge because of the success rate and obligation to feed cloth home educate and look after all these economic migrants. Hjs vision was a bit drastic for my taste, but the example was clear - no one would risk a people smuggling episode across the water, if the first world navies torpedoed their boats. No one would risk riding in lorries, if the border patrols would destroy the lorries. Essentially he was saying that if the journies were made so hazardous and risky, then only true refugees would try it, and economic migrants and welfare seekers would remain at base. A salutory point.
lllllll 11y ago
I believe refugees are mostly people in need that don't deserve the situation they find themselves in and should be given asylum in countries which are stable and at peace. However, my impression is that they mostly request asylum in Western countries (EU, Australia, USA, UK, Canada...). Assuming my impression is right (correct me otherwise!). Why is it like that? In the case of Muslim refugees, why don't they apply for asylum to Muslim countries, particularly those unbelievably oil-rich countries ( or even some more stable ones like Morocco for example), instead of some poor countries in the West such as Greece/Italy/Spain?
- moubarak 11y ago
  I don't know about oil-rich countries, but Lebanon has allowed over 1 million Syrian refugees in. I don't think it has to do with Muslims only, it's an Arab issue.
  - lllllll 11y ago
    Thanks for your reply. It seems that Lebanon is indeed trying to address the refugee problem and not just by setting up refugee camps[0]. Great! [0]: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/lebanon-formal-refugee-camps-syrians-150310073219002.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/lebanon-formal-refugee...
- cyorir 11y ago
  Most refugees from Syria have ended up in camps in Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan, not Western countries. Life in these camps is not especially good compared to asylum in Western countries with infrastructure for accepting migrants such as Germany; however, getting asylum in these countries is more difficult. As for Greece, the migrants who end up there probably weren't looking at Greece as a final destination, but as a stepping stone for better destinations in Europe.
  - lllllll 11y ago
    >> Life in these camps is not especially good compared to asylum in Western countries That's exactly one of my concerns here. Why doesn't for example Jordan just let them assimilate in their society, as fellow Arabs, and instead it just keeps them in camps? Of course not just Jordan, but also other more resourceful Arab/Muslim (mostly Sunni Muslim) countries such as UAE, Qatar, etc. Wouldn't it be easier for these already traumatized refugees to integrate in Moroccan, Tunisian, Egyptian, Jordanian, Saudi Arabian, UAE-ian(?)...societies? Isn't there a "brotherhood" thing between Arabs (maybe even between Muslims? or just Sunni Muslims?)?
HelloThereHuman 11y ago
Wow... as a swede, this was a bit surreal to read. Wonderful piece, what a story.
- return0 11y ago
  Is Sweden really unconditionally giving asylum to everyone who is from syria?
  - HelloThereHuman 11y ago
    This will explain things for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QrIapiNOw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QrIapiNOw
mynameishere 11y ago
Such stark madness in the Western world. Sweden has no responsibility towards Syria. None. None at all, and there is no arguing otherwise. The grandchildren of today's rulers will either curse them, or simply not exist. It depends on how fast said rulers can wipe out the native populations. And yes, it can happen--in fact, it is happening right now, and far faster than it happened to the Indigenous Americans.
rasputhin 11y ago
Such a sharp contrast in nearly every aspect of life. Thanks for sharing the link.
return0 11y ago
The last civil wars in europe were 30-50 years ago. Back then moving between borders wasn't as easy. There were big movements of immigrants in europe , mainly to germany, but this is different. It seems people affected from war take immigration as the first option now, which leaves their countries even more devastated. Also, most of them seem to have no interest in ever going back making it even worse. Given that europe is not exactly flourishing, so it can provide jobs to those immigrants, it seems an interventive strategy would be a better idea.

55 points by winta 11y ago

It's unfortunate to me that it is impossible to have a discussion about how this kind of immigration dilutes European culture and identity. The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, said[0] If we don't stop their entry, the problem that currently stands at 60,000 could grow to 600,000, and that threatens our existence as a Jewish and democratic state ... This phenomenon is very grave and threatens the social fabric of society, our national security and our national identity. While he has come under some criticism for these statements, can you imagine what would happen if a European prime minister made this kind of statement? [0] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-netanyahu-african-immigrants-jewish http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/20/israel-netanyah...

nsns 11y ago
"dilutes European culture and identity" But how could these be diluted? Do you perhaps mean "change", "expand", "put into question"? And is it more important to save those fleeing for their lives or your sense of "undiluted" identity? (Moreover, an identity historically forged through their exploitation.) The prime minister of Israel should be reminded that Israel was created as a sanctuary for his people fleeing those exact völkisch sentiments he now preaches. I know from personal experience that there are many Israelis who share this view and are appalled by his words [0]. [0] http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/ http://972mag.com/special/aslyum-seekers-2/
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous. If at all, Muslim immigrants feel diluted. And I am not denying that European societies have disproportionately many problems with Muslim immigrants. But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society: No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. That holds even when both are muslim.
  - trhway 11y ago
    >No human should be punished for crimes another human committed. what about the crimes committed with approval, in the name and by the power vested by the other humans? When these other humans shield and harbor the committer of the crime?
    - bayesianhorse 11y ago
      Aiding and abetting terrorists can be and is punished. Sympathy for IS or similar groups/countries is a whole different story. As long as they are at best voicing their support, or not even that, it's really difficult and contra-productive to prosecute. If you want to morally condemn every Muslim for sympathizing with IS, you should keep in mind that most people fighting them are Muslim. You also should keep in mind that most Muslims don't sympathize with these kind of crimes or terrorism in general....
  - Conjoiner 11y ago
    Causing the rape statistics to shoot through the roof is a bit of an impact.
    - bayesianhorse 11y ago
      So Islam commands them have to rape Western woman? Most Muslim scholars would disagree. I actually agree that Muslim immigrants are more prone to commit this kind of crime. That doesn't mean it's an Islam thing. It also doesn't mean innocent Muslims can be treated any worse because some of them commit crimes. Trying to solve this problem by blaming their religion is not going to lead anywhere good.
  - lllllll 11y ago
    >> Turns out, Islam tends to have virtually no influence on European culture. All this talk about "dilution" is ridiculous Define "no influence". If you walk around many European cities you see areas where the stores are 90% Döner/Kebab/Pakistani. I mean, that seems to me like some influence. The fact that such a huge number of people with Muslim background relocate to an area, is clearly a cause for the rise in Muslim-owned Muslim-oriented businesses. But hey! I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing, I just disagree with what you said. And the way streets look/feel when you walk down them is a great example of how Muslim(and other immigrants also ofc!) do have an influence on the culture and lifestyle in Europe. >> But we can't do anything about it without violating what we believe is a just society I agree with that, refugees must be granted asylum in countries at peace. However, we must be aware that this is NOT addressing the problem itself, but its consequences; and hence the problem can only grow bigger.
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  I think it's clear what I mean by dilution. When everyone has a similar viewpoint and cultural practices, it is much easier to maintain this when there are not large number of immigrants. It's true that there are critics of Netanyahu. However his views are not extreme in Israeli politics, and he is not considered a pariah internationally. On the contrary, the news source "972 magazine" would be considered a political pariah in the US for its support of the BDS movement.
- throwaway_coz 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure every person[0] would choose their sense of "undiluted identity" when push came to shove. Why? Because fear of the unknown is a thing and muslims have been vilified a lot. Anyway, Israel is very aware of the dilution effects. After all, they have been exploiting it (and much stronger arm techniques) to carve out their country. [0] Unless you are Ghandi.
bayesianhorse 11y ago
First of all, Israel is a special case. It has been founded artificially on a land that was predominantly inhabited by muslims, surrounded by countries predominantly inhabited by muslims. I won't dive into any discussion if that was a good idea, or if they were right to do that, I am just stating that a lot of non-muslims streamed into a place where there were lots of muslims. The idea that this jewish state, would manage to keep out the majority population in the region without some major "ethnic cleansing" is ridiculous. In Europe it's the other way around. The large majority here is not muslim, and there is a small (yes, it's tiny compared to the whole population) influx of muslims. There is no reason to fear a islamification of Europe. The numbers just don't allow it.
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  I never said that Europe would be "Islamified", although Europe is projected to be 8% Muslim by 2030[0], and not all immigration is from Islamic countries. For reference, Israel is 21% Muslim[1]. If your suburb becomes 50% muslim, it's certainly going to have a big effect even if other parts of the country remain unaffected. I don't see how your argument about geography works. Not everyone in a neighboring country is going to try to claim refugee status. Netanyahu was referring to 60,000 refugees but this was a total over many years, while Sweden, a country of similar population size to Israel, accepted 31,000 refugees in 2014 [2] and will accept even more in 2015. [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/15/5-facts-abou... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel [2] http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/Facts-and-statistics-/Statistics/2014.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-A...
  - lllllll 11y ago
    >> If your suburb becomes 50% muslim, it's certainly going to have a big effect even if other parts of the country remain unaffected. This.
    - 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ads_are_shite 11y ago

I spoke with a colleague the other day and he made a reasonable point - the number of people reaching the shore is huge because of the success rate and obligation to feed cloth home educate and look after all these economic migrants. Hjs vision was a bit drastic for my taste, but the example was clear - no one would risk a people smuggling episode across the water, if the first world navies torpedoed their boats. No one would risk riding in lorries, if the border patrols would destroy the lorries. Essentially he was saying that if the journies were made so hazardous and risky, then only true refugees would try it, and economic migrants and welfare seekers would remain at base. A salutory point.

lllllll 11y ago

I believe refugees are mostly people in need that don't deserve the situation they find themselves in and should be given asylum in countries which are stable and at peace. However, my impression is that they mostly request asylum in Western countries (EU, Australia, USA, UK, Canada...). Assuming my impression is right (correct me otherwise!). Why is it like that? In the case of Muslim refugees, why don't they apply for asylum to Muslim countries, particularly those unbelievably oil-rich countries ( or even some more stable ones like Morocco for example), instead of some poor countries in the West such as Greece/Italy/Spain?

moubarak 11y ago
I don't know about oil-rich countries, but Lebanon has allowed over 1 million Syrian refugees in. I don't think it has to do with Muslims only, it's an Arab issue.
- lllllll 11y ago
  Thanks for your reply. It seems that Lebanon is indeed trying to address the refugee problem and not just by setting up refugee camps[0]. Great! [0]: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/lebanon-formal-refugee-camps-syrians-150310073219002.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/lebanon-formal-refugee...
cyorir 11y ago
Most refugees from Syria have ended up in camps in Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan, not Western countries. Life in these camps is not especially good compared to asylum in Western countries with infrastructure for accepting migrants such as Germany; however, getting asylum in these countries is more difficult. As for Greece, the migrants who end up there probably weren't looking at Greece as a final destination, but as a stepping stone for better destinations in Europe.
- lllllll 11y ago
  >> Life in these camps is not especially good compared to asylum in Western countries That's exactly one of my concerns here. Why doesn't for example Jordan just let them assimilate in their society, as fellow Arabs, and instead it just keeps them in camps? Of course not just Jordan, but also other more resourceful Arab/Muslim (mostly Sunni Muslim) countries such as UAE, Qatar, etc. Wouldn't it be easier for these already traumatized refugees to integrate in Moroccan, Tunisian, Egyptian, Jordanian, Saudi Arabian, UAE-ian(?)...societies? Isn't there a "brotherhood" thing between Arabs (maybe even between Muslims? or just Sunni Muslims?)?

HelloThereHuman 11y ago

Wow... as a swede, this was a bit surreal to read. Wonderful piece, what a story.

return0 11y ago
Is Sweden really unconditionally giving asylum to everyone who is from syria?
- HelloThereHuman 11y ago
  This will explain things for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QrIapiNOw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_QrIapiNOw

mynameishere 11y ago

Such stark madness in the Western world. Sweden has no responsibility towards Syria. None. None at all, and there is no arguing otherwise. The grandchildren of today's rulers will either curse them, or simply not exist. It depends on how fast said rulers can wipe out the native populations. And yes, it can happen--in fact, it is happening right now, and far faster than it happened to the Indigenous Americans.

rasputhin 11y ago

Such a sharp contrast in nearly every aspect of life. Thanks for sharing the link.

return0 11y ago

The last civil wars in europe were 30-50 years ago. Back then moving between borders wasn't as easy. There were big movements of immigrants in europe , mainly to germany, but this is different. It seems people affected from war take immigration as the first option now, which leaves their countries even more devastated. Also, most of them seem to have no interest in ever going back making it even worse. Given that europe is not exactly flourishing, so it can provide jobs to those immigrants, it seems an interventive strategy would be a better idea.