6 ms·

Poetry is hugely successful in the modern world, it just happens to be set to music most of the time.

JadeNB 11y ago
Do you have any examples of genuine poetry—as opposed simply to lyrics using poetic structures, like rhythm and rhyme—in music? (Or would you take issue with the distinction that I draw, and declare that lyrics with poetic structures are poetry?) The closest that I can think of are Nick Cave and Leonard Cohen, but both of them stand out mainly by being much closer to poets than their peers, rather than seeming to me to be authentic poets themselves: trying to read their lyrics without the music usually robs them of their sense of poetry (for me, anyway).
- existencebox 11y ago
  AesopRock. Some of his more involved songs read as much as poetry as anything I've encountered in the past. (ZZZ top provides a good example and is a personal favorite for me.) But what do you describe as "genuine poetry"? Some sort of meter usage, some form of writing, structure? I think that creates an artificial divide, and prefer instead to just see many forms of storytelling through organized words, a continuum of various implementations of poetry/prose.
  - Nadya 11y ago
    Zero Dark Thirty is a good example of what I would consider poetry by Aesop. http://genius.com/Aesop-rock-zero-dark-thirty-lyrics http://genius.com/Aesop-rock-zero-dark-thirty-lyrics
  - JadeNB 11y ago
    > But what do you describe as "genuine poetry"? Some sort of meter usage, some form of writing, structure? I don't have a good definition, just an "I know it when I see it" sort of thing. > I think that creates an artificial divide, and prefer instead to just see many forms of storytelling through organized words, a continuum of various implementations of poetry/prose. I think that I would agree with the point that I thought tjradcliffe (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9707954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9707954) was making upthread. Informally, a 'genuine' poem to me is a way of communicating a story, an experience, or an emotion in a way that would be less effective if translated into prose. I don't know if this sort of definition by opposition is worthwhile; and, in fact, as I state it this way, I wonder if maybe I am arguing against my original position that not much music is poetry.
    - vacri 11y ago
      > I don't have a good definition, just an "I know it when I see it" sort of thing. Without a decent definition, no-one can hope to satisfy "as opposed simply to lyrics using poetic structures, like rhythm and rhyme". Basically you're asking people to prove your personal preferences. 'What is the difference between poetry and lyrics' is an age-old difficult question, with an easy answer for those who don't think there's a difference, and difficult searching for subtle differentiation for those who do. The link below is a good write-up of many of the issues, with the author thinking there is a difference, and that is only that lyrics don't work 'as well' without their attendant music (but which means we should to define what 'as well' means... and exceptions can always be found). http://bostonreview.net/forum/poetry-brink/difference-between-poetry-and-song-lyrics http://bostonreview.net/forum/poetry-brink/difference-betwee... Ultimately, if differentiation is that difficult a question, the two entities aren't all that qualitatively different, in my opinion.
    - ssaassaa 11y ago
      > I don't have a good definition, just an "I know it when I see it" sort of thing. Does this meet your definition? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K81UGHwhWaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K81UGHwhWaw
- zyxley 11y ago
  As noted in a different comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9708878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9708878), substantial amounts of hip-hop and rap music are essentially long poems set to a beat.
- mturmon 11y ago
  Bob Dylan would be another example, although I don't personally feel passionate about his work.
- jzymbaluk 11y ago
  when I think of hip hop as poetry, I think of Saul Williams. I'm on mobile and traveling at the moment so I can't provide a link, but one of the suns of his that comes to mind is Scared Money
- gwern 11y ago
  > Do you have any examples of genuine poetry—as opposed simply to lyrics using poetic structures, like rhythm and rhyme—in music? Poetry is often set to music. It's totally common to read in literature texts about a poet's works being set to music; I'm reading Donald Keene's book on post-Meiji Japanese literature and for at least one poet he mentions that his poems were popular enough that they were recited with music, and there's examples in Western literature, especially the Greeks like Sappho with lyric poetry.
  - JadeNB 11y ago
    This is a good point, but I took murbard2's post (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9708591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9708591) to refer to works that are intended to be musical, but that can be recognised as poetry, rather than to works that were first written as poetry, and then set to music. (I recognise that I am on possibly dodgy grounds here by trying to determine whether a given work is 'really' poetry, but musical, or 'really' music, but poetic.)
- calinet6 11y ago
  So much in the space of folk (of many cultures), your examples are closer to that than most other music. Indeed some of the best music out there melds the poetry perfectly with the music. It's an art that doesn't exist if either part is missing. Example that comes to mind, Nanci Griffith's 'Wing and the Wheel' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDs1kXTS9r8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDs1kXTS9r8 The wing and the wheel they carry things away Whether it's me that does the leavin' or the love that flies away The moon outside my window looks so lonely tonight Oh, there's a chunk out of it's middle big enough for an old fool to hide Where are all the dreamers that I used know? We used to linger beneath street lamps in the halos and the smoke The wing and the wheel came to carry them away Now they all live out in the suburbs where their dreams Are in their children at play There's a pale sky in the east all the stars are in the west Oh, here's to all the dreamers may our open hearts find rest The wing and the wheel are gonna carry us along And we'll have memories for company long after the songs are gone
  - ruricolist 11y ago
    This is a good example of the technical restrictions that make lyrics a (proper) subset of poetry: note in particular the abundance of long vowels, which make it not just readable but singable.
    - calinet6 11y ago
      It enables the lyricism of the song! Even more beautiful. That actually makes a lot of sense, thanks for pointing it out.
- murbard2 11y ago
  Would you consider Stairway to Heaven to be poetry when read without the music?

Do you have any examples of genuine poetry—as opposed simply to lyrics using poetic structures, like rhythm and rhyme—in music? (Or would you take issue with the distinction that I draw, and declare that lyrics with poetic structures are poetry?) The closest that I can think of are Nick Cave and Leonard Cohen, but both of them stand out mainly by being much closer to poets than their peers, rather than seeming to me to be authentic poets themselves: trying to read their lyrics without the music usually robs them of their sense of poetry (for me, anyway).

existencebox 11y ago
AesopRock. Some of his more involved songs read as much as poetry as anything I've encountered in the past. (ZZZ top provides a good example and is a personal favorite for me.) But what do you describe as "genuine poetry"? Some sort of meter usage, some form of writing, structure? I think that creates an artificial divide, and prefer instead to just see many forms of storytelling through organized words, a continuum of various implementations of poetry/prose.
- Nadya 11y ago
  Zero Dark Thirty is a good example of what I would consider poetry by Aesop. http://genius.com/Aesop-rock-zero-dark-thirty-lyrics http://genius.com/Aesop-rock-zero-dark-thirty-lyrics
- JadeNB 11y ago
  > But what do you describe as "genuine poetry"? Some sort of meter usage, some form of writing, structure? I don't have a good definition, just an "I know it when I see it" sort of thing. > I think that creates an artificial divide, and prefer instead to just see many forms of storytelling through organized words, a continuum of various implementations of poetry/prose. I think that I would agree with the point that I thought tjradcliffe (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9707954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9707954) was making upthread. Informally, a 'genuine' poem to me is a way of communicating a story, an experience, or an emotion in a way that would be less effective if translated into prose. I don't know if this sort of definition by opposition is worthwhile; and, in fact, as I state it this way, I wonder if maybe I am arguing against my original position that not much music is poetry.
  - vacri 11y ago
    > I don't have a good definition, just an "I know it when I see it" sort of thing. Without a decent definition, no-one can hope to satisfy "as opposed simply to lyrics using poetic structures, like rhythm and rhyme". Basically you're asking people to prove your personal preferences. 'What is the difference between poetry and lyrics' is an age-old difficult question, with an easy answer for those who don't think there's a difference, and difficult searching for subtle differentiation for those who do. The link below is a good write-up of many of the issues, with the author thinking there is a difference, and that is only that lyrics don't work 'as well' without their attendant music (but which means we should to define what 'as well' means... and exceptions can always be found). http://bostonreview.net/forum/poetry-brink/difference-between-poetry-and-song-lyrics http://bostonreview.net/forum/poetry-brink/difference-betwee... Ultimately, if differentiation is that difficult a question, the two entities aren't all that qualitatively different, in my opinion.
  - ssaassaa 11y ago
    > I don't have a good definition, just an "I know it when I see it" sort of thing. Does this meet your definition? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K81UGHwhWaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K81UGHwhWaw
zyxley 11y ago
As noted in a different comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9708878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9708878), substantial amounts of hip-hop and rap music are essentially long poems set to a beat.
mturmon 11y ago
Bob Dylan would be another example, although I don't personally feel passionate about his work.
jzymbaluk 11y ago
when I think of hip hop as poetry, I think of Saul Williams. I'm on mobile and traveling at the moment so I can't provide a link, but one of the suns of his that comes to mind is Scared Money
gwern 11y ago
> Do you have any examples of genuine poetry—as opposed simply to lyrics using poetic structures, like rhythm and rhyme—in music? Poetry is often set to music. It's totally common to read in literature texts about a poet's works being set to music; I'm reading Donald Keene's book on post-Meiji Japanese literature and for at least one poet he mentions that his poems were popular enough that they were recited with music, and there's examples in Western literature, especially the Greeks like Sappho with lyric poetry.
- JadeNB 11y ago
  This is a good point, but I took murbard2's post (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9708591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9708591) to refer to works that are intended to be musical, but that can be recognised as poetry, rather than to works that were first written as poetry, and then set to music. (I recognise that I am on possibly dodgy grounds here by trying to determine whether a given work is 'really' poetry, but musical, or 'really' music, but poetic.)
calinet6 11y ago
So much in the space of folk (of many cultures), your examples are closer to that than most other music. Indeed some of the best music out there melds the poetry perfectly with the music. It's an art that doesn't exist if either part is missing. Example that comes to mind, Nanci Griffith's 'Wing and the Wheel' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDs1kXTS9r8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDs1kXTS9r8 The wing and the wheel they carry things away Whether it's me that does the leavin' or the love that flies away The moon outside my window looks so lonely tonight Oh, there's a chunk out of it's middle big enough for an old fool to hide Where are all the dreamers that I used know? We used to linger beneath street lamps in the halos and the smoke The wing and the wheel came to carry them away Now they all live out in the suburbs where their dreams Are in their children at play There's a pale sky in the east all the stars are in the west Oh, here's to all the dreamers may our open hearts find rest The wing and the wheel are gonna carry us along And we'll have memories for company long after the songs are gone
- ruricolist 11y ago
  This is a good example of the technical restrictions that make lyrics a (proper) subset of poetry: note in particular the abundance of long vowels, which make it not just readable but singable.
  - calinet6 11y ago
    It enables the lyricism of the song! Even more beautiful. That actually makes a lot of sense, thanks for pointing it out.
murbard2 11y ago
Would you consider Stairway to Heaven to be poetry when read without the music?