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I'd like to play devil's advocate[1] for a second: why is the lack of women in CS a problem? Whatever the merit of all these explanations -- it's perceived as d

• pgbovine 17y ago
  > One downside I see is the lack of a "woman's perspective," which, while admittedly important in many fields, seems mostly irrelevant in a field where stuff either works or it doesn't. a particularly keen insight i got from talking to a female college friend (who was a CS major) is that the "women's perspective" might be more relevant than people think even in a supposedly objective field where things either work or don't ... because men and women see the world differently, women might be able to come up with different high-level design, low-level debugging, or software team management strategies that an all-male team might not think of ... of course, i don't have any concrete examples to back up this vague hand-wavy statement, but i think there's something there
  • anamax 17y ago
    > of course, i don't have any concrete examples to back up this vague hand-wavy statement [that "men and women see the world differently, women might be able to come up with different"], but i think there's something there Lots of people believe that, but I've yet to see an example. Since we make a lot of decisions based on it being true, I'm troubled that we don't know if it actually is. However, let's assume that it's true. It doesn't follow that said different is always valuable. It might be good in some fields, irrelevant in others, and bad in some. In other words, even if "think different" is true, it's not an argument for universal inclusion. Yes, I know that said "male think" may not be possessed by all males and lacking in all females.
    • wmf 17y ago
      I've heard one classic example. When PDAs came out they could manage one calendar for one person. A woman looked at it and noted that it must have been designed by men who manage only their own schedule while many women manage schedules for multiple family members.
• noodle 17y ago
  just to add a little more fuel to the fire on this one, i'd like to point out the fact that almost all (but not all) of my highly intelligent, capable friends fall along these lines: the smart women pick fields where they're helping others, and the smart men pick fields where they're building or discovering things. (purely personal observation and might not be indicative of anything as a whole, or my own personal beliefs on the subject.)
  • srn 17y ago
    My personal observation is that last night I stayed up too late reading the linux kernel code. Probably won't help anyone that much.
    • access_denied 17y ago
      Validating a datapoint as useless/useful is a later step and does not disqualify the collection of data either case.
• roc 17y ago
  Diversity helps in any environment, but it's not a goal I share, in and of itself. That said, the self-perpetuating 'Boys Club' stereotype is a problem I care about. In short: It causes nothing but trouble. It drives away more than just women. It creates stigma and bias and I don't see any positive return from it.
  • docmach 17y ago
    What makes you think diversity helps in any environment? I think that homogeneity is a great help for efficiency, which is often important. Diversity has its uses, but it's not for everything.
    • roc 17y ago
      I was referring to the overall environment, not any and every combination of 2+ people. A homogeneous group certainly can be the best team for a given task. I'm only suggesting you have a sub-optimal environment if the only teams you can put together are homogeneous ones.
• erikb85 17y ago
  I second that! The more I have to do with women and the more I have to do with CS, the more I think women don't _need_ to be in CS. 1. When I am doing my CS thing, I _want_ to be the cave man. It doesn't mean I have no interest in social activities or flowers in rooms without "Start Trek Names". Having flowers and sunlight in a coders room is like having bikinis and beachball at a ski holiday place. There is no need to mix things up. 2. Normally women have other ideals as beeing a "cave man". Actually the girls who like the geeky stuff are not really interesting for any boy I know. Interesting "normal" girls are interested in relatively normal and balanced things. What integrates in society without beeing weired in one direction or the other. That _is_ pretty fine for me. If I want to be with women, I would never bring them into the cave. concluding: there is not really any problem with the actual situation...
• ynniv 17y ago
  Yeah, that half of humanity probably has the same opinions and insights that we do. Can't imagine their input being valuable. And you're spot on about software being black and white - either your word processor works correctly or it doesn't work at all. EDIT: Just to clarify, you're an idiot and a troll. Your (Devil's advocate) opinion is shortsighted and foolhardy. If you are writing software that "works or it doesn't", you are writing something inane, needless, or redundant. Most of the effort of developing software at this point in time is gathering requirements and designing interfaces. Work which is cut and dry is usually created by unnecessary process or poor choice of tools.
  • ynniv 17y ago
    I'm disappointed that people (a) don't understand sarcasm, or (b) actually agree with the original commenter. Since no one left any meaningful feedback, I will assume the latter. If you're planning to start a company, thats a poor position to start from.
• mechanical_fish 17y ago
  a field where stuff either works or it doesn't What field are you talking about? I don't believe such a field exists. Not one that is worthy of the name "field". It certainly isn't user-experience design, where there is obviously no bright line between "what works" and "what does not work", and where the value of a diverse team is easiest to appreciate. ("What, you mean the word processor user hasn't bothered to learn how to use a DVCS from the command line? Were they born yesterday?") But we needn't go that far. Everything that the hardest of hard-core geeks talk about all day long: What language should we use? Should I use emacs, vi, Textmate, Eclipse or Notepad? Should I use Mac OS, Windows, or Linux here? What database architecture is right for this task? Come to think of it, am I even working on the right task? ...are choices between a bunch of options, all of which will "work" in one sense or another. Even down-and-dirty C hacking requires an endless series of decisions between things which will work and things which might work better on one axis or another.
  • Tichy 17y ago
    I've noticed that for some reason the default color scheme for vim seems to color Strings in pink. What is up with that?
    • albemuth 17y ago
      Obviously someone thought not enough women were using vim, duh.
    • aswanson 17y ago
      Accidentally downmodded you, meant to upmod . Android touchscreen is too small, but I agree. Ugly default color.
• jacoblyles 17y ago
  Well, I certainly enjoy the social environment of my grad program more because it has a well-mixed gender ratio. But besides my own enjoyment of my course of study, if we are setting up filters besides "good at computer science" for entrance into computer science, then we are doing ourselves a disservice. If I could offer another anecdote and unsupported hypothesis, I suspect our grad program has a better mix because it is more foreign, and foreigners have a different perception of the gender stereotypes surrounding Computer Science than we do. There's a lot of non-Americans on hacker news, perhaps one of them could comment.
• zck 17y ago
  The lack of women in CS is a problem because the CS field is missing out. There are a whole lot of intelligent women that could make important breakthroughs. The field is slowed because half the population is discouraged from joining it.
  • deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  • simonw 17y ago
    Exactly what I was going to say.
  • gaius 17y ago
    Would as much code get written if the industry was more socially mainstream? Would it be less but better or just less? There's no denying that the lone geek (male or female) staying up late gets an awful lot done.
    • roc 17y ago
      Why do you assume 'socially mainstream' == 'less code'? You seem to be implying that geeks only write code because the industry isn't socially mainstream.
      • gaius 17y ago
        Simply because it means physically spending less time at the keyboard and less time with people who just want to code. Socially mainstream means leaving work at 5pm and going to the pub, that's what "normal" people do.
  • mitko 17y ago
    Agreed. But not only women are repelled by the geeky atmosphere in the computer science. Many extrovert male people get bored and disgusted too. So it is not really even 50% of the people diversity who create the software. It feels more like 5-10%. I belong to that 5-10% and I think that among the others there are many who are way more creative than us.
• araneae 17y ago
  I actually agree that it might not be a problem for computer science to not have women in the field. It's really more of a problem for women who want to be in the field. If you had asked, 40 years ago, "why is the lack of women in math, science, medicine, academia, and leadership positions a problem" this would be more obvious. Since many fields today are more equitable, it is a lot less problematic, although perhaps not for a few folks here and there.
  • jlees 17y ago
    it's also a problem for men in the field who want to date nerdy women ;)
    • btilly 17y ago
      Men viewing nerdy women as potential dating material is commonly cited by women as one of the things they most dislike about being anywhere near tech events and tech people. So I would suggest that you ask yourself whether you, personally, have contributed to women not wanting to get more involved in tech. Because you just might have. Seriously, everything works out better for everyone in the long run if you value women as people first and foremost. Admittedly doing so reduces your opportunities to make passes at uninterested women. But it significantly improves your odds of success if you do make a pass, and greatly improves your odds of eventually winding up in a decent relationship.
      • jlees 17y ago
        I very much doubt that I, personally, have contributed to this, being as I am on the 'receiving end' so to speak. Anyway, anecdotally, I can't say I've ever encountered this. I mean the last time I got hit on by a guy in a technical context... wait, it's never happened. The closest thing I can think of is getting randomly upvoted on HN whenever I happen to mention my gender in a post, or similar. If anything, guys in tech -- the real techies, that is -- are so horribly bad at talking to women that it's being viewed as an alien from outer space that's offputting, not being viewed as a pair of walking boobs. On that note, I definitely agree with valuing women as people. But in my experience, at least, male attitudes towards women in tech as sexual objects are not even remotely a factor. However, the concern that you won't even meet nerdy women if there aren't any women involved in tech is still valid, IMO!
• squarecog 17y ago
  In addition to the criticisms you address in your addendum (women's perspective is important, and "works or not" is too simplistic) consider this: by creating and perpetuating environment that is unfriendly to women, we are reducing the talent pool from which we draw programmers by sightly more than 50%. Even if there was no such thing as "a woman's perspective" (depends on the woman/man in question, I suppose), it is highly inefficient to limit your pool this way. In my opinion this is NOT, in fact, self-selection, not to the degree this imbalance is getting to. I've seen multiple times in the universities I've attended the difference between how things get explained to women and men -- many instructors and TAs, for example, will quickly and subconsciously drop into condescension and use things like cooking analogies when talking to female students. I've heard programmers of all talent levels apply gender-based value judgments to women attempting to enter the field. The worst are "women are bad at logic" -- and there are many who really believe that -- but "you are a woman so you will do the UI as you must be good at visual stuff" is also sexist.
  • Dove 17y ago
    Well, by creating and perpetuating an environment that is friendly to geeks, we are also increasing the talent pool from which we draw programmers among geeks. Think for a second. If we're talking about adjusting the decor to market to a culture, what culture does it make sense for CS to target? Women? Athletes? Norwegians? Black Guys? It seems to me the alliance between geeks and programmers is quite natural. You could redecorate the lounge in pink and put plushies everywhere. You might get a few more women who think, "Okay, I guess I could fit in here." You'll get a lot fewer geeks who think, "Thank God, I've finally come home." Is that a positive tradeoff? Color me skeptical. Go found a Hacker Girls group, dominate the industry, prove me wrong. Until then, don't be engineering the culture.
    • cyen 17y ago
      What, there's no neutral environment that can be maintained? It's Star Trek and cans of Monster, or pink wallpaper and plushies? Come on. With any [insert subculture here]-friendly environment, there's a chance of alienation. We're not asking to adjust the decor to market to a culture, just the recognition that one that plays heavily into the "typical geek" stereotype can be off-putting to _any_ who don't fit.
• jlees 17y ago
  Because computers are so integral to how we as a society are evolving and functioning, and it's been pretty well stated elsewhere that men and women function/think quite differently, having software that powers society that's primarily written by-and-for 50% of the population is generally considered to be a detrimental thing. This has been particularly evidenced in gaming where mixed development teams come up with games that appeal far more widely to the general audience than the typical all-male FPS product. (Yes, this is a crass generalisation, but I've spent several years as part of women in gaming movements/the IGDA WiG SIG and so on. Male dev teams just don't build stuff that women want to play, for the most part.) As to the "I'd really like to be a computer programmer, but I can't" -- I'm aware this was a facetious remark, but it's far more insidious than that, really. When I was at school, I was good at maths and physics. I loved logic and 'decision maths' (which was basically algorithms; we studied things like the TSP). I played about with computers in my spare time, ran the school website, etc. What career was I advised to follow? Electrical engineering. Not computer science. I didn't even know you could study computer science until I was looking at university prospectuses for mathematics. I've never thought "I wish I could $foo, but I can't because I'm a woman". But I have experienced problems due to my gender, on a day to day level it's more stuff like having people change the topic of conversation when you join in the circle, not being asked for your opinion, having to over-justify your techie-ness to 'fit in' which just ends up sounding horribly arrogant.. being deliberately excluded from some conversations, having people make all kinds of stupid assumptions which you then have to correct - no I don't do marketing, no my PhD wasn't in linguistics, and techie people hate being wrong.. not fitting into XL freebie t-shirts properly, not having healthy/vegetarian/non-beer options at CS events (ok guys may well have this too).. etc etc. I don't list career sabotage or anything here because I'm young, I've mostly been in academia and I'm now running a startup, so I'm lucky enough not to have had problems there. (Except when I worked in a computer shop and customers actually demanded to speak to "the computer man", but hey. Their stupidity, not mine.) On the extreme flipside, and I don't see many women talking about this stuff: being female has been great for getting fast-track opportunities into stuff. e.g. being flown to America to attend the Austin Games Conference as part of a Microsoft women in computing initiative. I do feel sometimes that I was let into competitive schemes partly because I'm awesome and partly due to the fact I'm the only woman applying and it looks good if I get in because then they have Gender Balance. (note, I am awesome, but that little voice of "was it because I'm perfect for the position or was it because I'm a minority" never quite goes away. I imagine others have the same problem in different ways.) However, I'm pretty sure that compared to a male CS major with a similar background, I've had far more opportunity. I feel a little guilty about it, but if I didn't seize it, someone else would -- and I'm actively trying to help change the need for such things in the first place.
• lmkg 17y ago
  In reply to your first point, about women not wanting to go into CS, I would say that in itself is the problem. Programming (or other hard sciences) could be a very rewarding career path, but they're socialized to self-select away from it. I don't think that CS as a field is necessarily lacking an important female perspective[1], but I do think that individual women may be missing an opportunity for the wrong reasons. The self-selection aspect should not be taken as a lack of problem, but rather a characterization of the problem as having more subtle causes. [1] Although, there may be truth in the idea that software is written for/from a male perspective, meaning that it doesn't suit women's needs as well... whatever those needs are. Yeah, I'm ambivalent about this point, but I don't outright reject it. PS I also highly recommend reading The Mismeasure of Woman by Carol(?) Tavris. It provides very clear concrete, statistical, and anecdotal explanations of how and why a woman's experience differs from a man's, and the consequences of the man's experience being an implicit standard. Despite being woman-focused, the book is also pretty rational and balanced about the potential of reverse-discrimination, and does a pretty good job of noting problems without demanding specific fixes.
• DaniFong 17y ago
  It's perfectly acceptable for me to see fewer women or men or people of a particular socioeconomic or religious background in one field or another. That alone doesn't bother me, except insofar as it can be a signal to another problem. One thing that does concern me greatly is that there are many women who are interested in science and technology, and especially computer science, who are at some point turned off. It appears to really begin around junior high and high school, and it continues through college. My concern is that we're losing a lot of interested and bright minds, who might be excited in the course of actually working in technology, who are being turned away for some reason. I think it's important to try to understand the reasons before we pass judgment upon them. But it might raise some questions and inspire some solutions that generally makes work in technology more enjoyable. Not just for women; for everyone. Consider the reaction to pair programming. Both women and men just plain tended to like it more. That seems to show that there are many people out there who would enjoy working in technology were it not as solitary. That's a major discovery. And I think we've just scratched the surface.
  • pm 17y ago
    Anecdotally, I've found working through and solving a difficult problem together reinforces social bonds. Even introverts crave some form of social interaction. It almost seems obvious after the fact.
  • Ruchira 17y ago
    I'd recommend _Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing_ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262632691?ie=UTF8&tag=httpwwwruchir-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0262632691 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262632691?ie=UTF8&tag=... by Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher. They studies reasons why fewer women were enrolled in the CMU CS program, and successfully applied their findings to raise enrollment while maintaining graduation rate. They found that what was detrimental for women was detrimental for everybody, but women tended to be on the margin and so were more severely impacted. One issue was that women were much less likely to have spent a lot of time with computers before arriving. Another was that women were more concerned about practical applications.
    • 17y ago
• credo 17y ago
  If the so-called "self-selection" is strongly influenced by societal conditioning, it is worth considering what messages our society sends. It is worth noting that this gender disparity (wrt women programmers etc.) is predominantly a native-born-women issue. Asian immigrant women in the US don't have a similar pattern and as far as I know, the US pattern doesn't exist in countries like India and China -