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I find it hard to imagine abrupt corrections happening in the western world. Everyone is just so very controlled. But then maybe people thought the same thing

by tangled 11y ago

I find it hard to imagine abrupt corrections happening in the western world. Everyone is just so very controlled. But then maybe people thought the same thing leading up to the French revolution 'only' 200 years ago? From my limited knowledge, the French had a stable aristocracy with a controlled populace. And then just a few years later the new powers were executing tens of thousands of citizens. That's crazy.

ttflee 11y ago
That's what happened in China in the first and second decades after Communists assumed power in 1949. In waves of political movements, many, if not all, of the old elites were repressed, exiled and killed. Showing sympathy for them was politically incorrect in those days.
Sideloader 11y ago
I think the western world suffers from a collective mass delusion. We think that liberal democracy and a (no longer) stable middle-class are "how things are" and it is still easy (but becoming increasingly difficult)to believe "this" was how it always was and how it will always be. The rise of the middle-class began in the early 20th century and peaked in the 1970s and since then we have been sliding back into a feudal order where the 5%, 1%, 0.1% or whatever effectively control all of the wealth and power and the remaining 90%+ owe fealty to their regional feudal overlord. This is not to say a return to a feudal order is inevitable but various flavors of feudalism served as the west's default social and political structure for thousands of years before democracy made its appearance. I suspect reality will sink in if or, rather, when, an economic catastrophe precipitates a breakdown in the social and/or political order and the standard of living falls out from underneath the citizens of today's prosperous nations and mass unemployment, hunger, deprivation and violence become tangible and inescapable. If present trends continue we are fucked but, as you mentioned, change for the better (or worse ;p) can manifest itself quickly and unexpectedly. As for China...it's home to a civilization that's remained more or less intact for over 5,000 years. Something tells me that despite western pundits disingenuously prophesying its imminent collapse China will be around for a while yet. But there like here change can come fast and hard when it's least expected. The digital revolution (and it is a revolution) has already changed the world in ways that were unimaginable even 15-20 years ago. And this is only the beginning!
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  Many of our ancestors fought the forces of feudalism in order to create broken democracies out of feudalism and their descendants fought to turn turn broken democracies into less broken democracies. And their descendants fought to turn less broken democracies into liberal democracies. Fatalism not only shows immense disrespect to the achievements of every generation before us that fought to create a humane and just society, it is a gift to the forces of feudalism that attempt to corrupt our democratic processes and sequester our wealth.
  - tangled 11y ago
    I'm not sure it is fatalism. Could the past fifty years or so just be an anomaly? Is it that liberal democracies are inherently unstable as they scale up? Already, it's basically impossible to have a single-earner family, whereas I think that was pretty common in the post WWII years. And education costs continue to rise (my parents were paid a stipend to become doctors in the UK... those times are long gone now).
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      Just how exactly have you managed to convince yourself that it's not fatalism?
    - locopati 11y ago
      This may have something to do with deliberate decisions made around how much those who have plenty contribute to the society around them so that others may have enough.
  - Sideloader 11y ago
    You talk about our ancestors and their descendents fighting to create democracies out of feudalism and I broadly agree with that notion (assuming you mean during the historical period beginning with the American and French revolutions and ending after the Second World War). Looking at the western world today it seems obvious that the rights and liberties our ancestors fought to achieve and uphold are not something we should be taking for granted. Indeed, in 2015 there is compelling evidence that liberal democracy and its star progeny - a stable and prosperous middle-class - are seriously wounded. You even list some of the factors contributing to the current state of affairs in other posts in this thread. However if I came across as fatalistic that certainly wasn't my intention. Yes, democracy is wounded and under attack but that does not mean a return to feudalism is inevitable. I did say that a return to some sort of feudal order seems likely if current trends continue unopposed. Even pacified westerners have a breaking point. The growing movement to keep the free and open internet from being subjugated by governments and corporations in the name of a global surveillance society shows that people are not going to sit idly by and let the powers that be strip away their hard won rights and liberties. Ditto the ongoing campaign for a liveable wage and police accountability. That said it would be a fatal mistake to underestimate the addictive nature of power and the effect it has on those who possess it. The "global elite" will not wake up one morning and decide to share the spoils of legislated inequality. As political scientist Henry Farrell, referencing British academic Colin Crouch's 2009 book Post-Democracy, wrote: "At some point shortly after the end of the Second World War, democracy reached its apex in countries such as Britain and the US. According to Crouch, it has been declining ever since. Places such as Italy had more ambiguous histories of rise and decline, while others still, including Spain, Portugal and Greece, began the ascent much later, having only emerged from dictatorship in the 1970s. Nevertheless, all of these countries have reached the downward slope of the arc. The formal structures of democracy remain intact. People still vote. Political parties vie with each other in elections, and circulate in and out of government. Yet these acts of apparent choice have had their meaning hollowed out. The real decisions are taken elsewhere. We have become squatters in the ruins of the great democratic societies of the past." (http://aeon.co/magazine/society/henry-farrell-post-democracy/ http://aeon.co/magazine/society/henry-farrell-post-democracy...) It remains to be seen whether democracy will persevere or if this brief (so far) respite from feudalism will remain an historical anomaly. The choices we make going forward will have a huge impact here. If we decide to keep our heads buried in the sand and continue telling ourselves that everything is just fine despite evidence to the contrary, that would be immensely disrespectful to every person that has risked life and well-being to create or protect the rights and liberties we too easily take for granted...even as they are being systematically dismantled all around us.

by tangled 11y ago

ttflee 11y ago

That's what happened in China in the first and second decades after Communists assumed power in 1949. In waves of political movements, many, if not all, of the old elites were repressed, exiled and killed. Showing sympathy for them was politically incorrect in those days.

Sideloader 11y ago

I think the western world suffers from a collective mass delusion. We think that liberal democracy and a (no longer) stable middle-class are "how things are" and it is still easy (but becoming increasingly difficult)to believe "this" was how it always was and how it will always be. The rise of the middle-class began in the early 20th century and peaked in the 1970s and since then we have been sliding back into a feudal order where the 5%, 1%, 0.1% or whatever effectively control all of the wealth and power and the remaining 90%+ owe fealty to their regional feudal overlord. This is not to say a return to a feudal order is inevitable but various flavors of feudalism served as the west's default social and political structure for thousands of years before democracy made its appearance. I suspect reality will sink in if or, rather, when, an economic catastrophe precipitates a breakdown in the social and/or political order and the standard of living falls out from underneath the citizens of today's prosperous nations and mass unemployment, hunger, deprivation and violence become tangible and inescapable. If present trends continue we are fucked but, as you mentioned, change for the better (or worse ;p) can manifest itself quickly and unexpectedly. As for China...it's home to a civilization that's remained more or less intact for over 5,000 years. Something tells me that despite western pundits disingenuously prophesying its imminent collapse China will be around for a while yet. But there like here change can come fast and hard when it's least expected. The digital revolution (and it is a revolution) has already changed the world in ways that were unimaginable even 15-20 years ago. And this is only the beginning!

crdoconnor 11y ago
Many of our ancestors fought the forces of feudalism in order to create broken democracies out of feudalism and their descendants fought to turn turn broken democracies into less broken democracies. And their descendants fought to turn less broken democracies into liberal democracies. Fatalism not only shows immense disrespect to the achievements of every generation before us that fought to create a humane and just society, it is a gift to the forces of feudalism that attempt to corrupt our democratic processes and sequester our wealth.
- tangled 11y ago
  I'm not sure it is fatalism. Could the past fifty years or so just be an anomaly? Is it that liberal democracies are inherently unstable as they scale up? Already, it's basically impossible to have a single-earner family, whereas I think that was pretty common in the post WWII years. And education costs continue to rise (my parents were paid a stipend to become doctors in the UK... those times are long gone now).
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    Just how exactly have you managed to convince yourself that it's not fatalism?
  - locopati 11y ago
    This may have something to do with deliberate decisions made around how much those who have plenty contribute to the society around them so that others may have enough.
- Sideloader 11y ago
  You talk about our ancestors and their descendents fighting to create democracies out of feudalism and I broadly agree with that notion (assuming you mean during the historical period beginning with the American and French revolutions and ending after the Second World War). Looking at the western world today it seems obvious that the rights and liberties our ancestors fought to achieve and uphold are not something we should be taking for granted. Indeed, in 2015 there is compelling evidence that liberal democracy and its star progeny - a stable and prosperous middle-class - are seriously wounded. You even list some of the factors contributing to the current state of affairs in other posts in this thread. However if I came across as fatalistic that certainly wasn't my intention. Yes, democracy is wounded and under attack but that does not mean a return to feudalism is inevitable. I did say that a return to some sort of feudal order seems likely if current trends continue unopposed. Even pacified westerners have a breaking point. The growing movement to keep the free and open internet from being subjugated by governments and corporations in the name of a global surveillance society shows that people are not going to sit idly by and let the powers that be strip away their hard won rights and liberties. Ditto the ongoing campaign for a liveable wage and police accountability. That said it would be a fatal mistake to underestimate the addictive nature of power and the effect it has on those who possess it. The "global elite" will not wake up one morning and decide to share the spoils of legislated inequality. As political scientist Henry Farrell, referencing British academic Colin Crouch's 2009 book Post-Democracy, wrote: "At some point shortly after the end of the Second World War, democracy reached its apex in countries such as Britain and the US. According to Crouch, it has been declining ever since. Places such as Italy had more ambiguous histories of rise and decline, while others still, including Spain, Portugal and Greece, began the ascent much later, having only emerged from dictatorship in the 1970s. Nevertheless, all of these countries have reached the downward slope of the arc. The formal structures of democracy remain intact. People still vote. Political parties vie with each other in elections, and circulate in and out of government. Yet these acts of apparent choice have had their meaning hollowed out. The real decisions are taken elsewhere. We have become squatters in the ruins of the great democratic societies of the past." (http://aeon.co/magazine/society/henry-farrell-post-democracy/ http://aeon.co/magazine/society/henry-farrell-post-democracy...) It remains to be seen whether democracy will persevere or if this brief (so far) respite from feudalism will remain an historical anomaly. The choices we make going forward will have a huge impact here. If we decide to keep our heads buried in the sand and continue telling ourselves that everything is just fine despite evidence to the contrary, that would be immensely disrespectful to every person that has risked life and well-being to create or protect the rights and liberties we too easily take for granted...even as they are being systematically dismantled all around us.