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So my 1920's piano would then be illegal to sell, just because it has ivory on the keys?

Phlarp 11y ago
If so, there have to be better ways to fight poaching. Why not legalize it? Given how large the current black market is "farming" ivory has to be a viable enterprise at some level. Cows aren't going extinct anytime soon, why can't the same market force apply to elephants and rhinos?
- wavefunction 11y ago
  Probably because cows are domesticated and rhinos and elephants aren't.
- adamnemecek 11y ago
  > If so, there have to be better ways to fight poaching. Better than banning the sales? How is legalizing it better? Because some people would be able to resell their old piano? You have a pretty dumb definition of better. > Why not legalize it? The current poaching epidemic is due to relaxation of CITES restriction of ivory trade in 2008 (I think). The poaching issues wasn't as bad until then. So "legalization" is what got us here in the first place. > Given how large the current black market is "farming" ivory has to be a viable enterprise at some level. Right, let's inflict pain and suffering on an entires species of extremely intelligent creatures so that we can keep making some shitty trinkets. Besides the ethical issues, it's also unlikely to be viable economically. It takes a while for an elephant to grow tusks (as in decades). > Cows aren't going extinct anytime soon, why can't the same market force apply to elephants and rhinos? Domesticated cows might not, but their wild ancestors went extinct some 400 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs). What this would do is make the market for ivory even bigger and there wouldn't be anything preventing poachers from hunting wild elephants to extinction. If anything, it would make the extinction even faster. You aren't the first person to suggest this idea but it's extremely stupid regardless. As in, I cannot understand how anyone would think that this is a better idea than banning sales of ivory.
cge 11y ago
At least looking at the California bill being considered: musical instruments would be exempted if they had documentation of being sufficiently old, and contained only a small amount of ivory. Antiques over 100 years old would also be exempted, but only those containing less than 5% ivory by volume. This would seem to ban the sale of a wide variety of antiques and artworks. I'm not sure about the volumes, for example, but I expect it would ban the sale of many Georgian-era hair-on-ivory paintings and ivory portrait miniatures, amongst other things.
snowwrestler 11y ago
Usually there are exceptions for old pianos, but just as a thought experiment: imagine if you had to choose between selling your piano, and the extinction of elephants. Which would you choose?

If so, there have to be better ways to fight poaching. Why not legalize it? Given how large the current black market is "farming" ivory has to be a viable enterprise at some level. Cows aren't going extinct anytime soon, why can't the same market force apply to elephants and rhinos?

wavefunction 11y ago
Probably because cows are domesticated and rhinos and elephants aren't.
adamnemecek 11y ago
> If so, there have to be better ways to fight poaching. Better than banning the sales? How is legalizing it better? Because some people would be able to resell their old piano? You have a pretty dumb definition of better. > Why not legalize it? The current poaching epidemic is due to relaxation of CITES restriction of ivory trade in 2008 (I think). The poaching issues wasn't as bad until then. So "legalization" is what got us here in the first place. > Given how large the current black market is "farming" ivory has to be a viable enterprise at some level. Right, let's inflict pain and suffering on an entires species of extremely intelligent creatures so that we can keep making some shitty trinkets. Besides the ethical issues, it's also unlikely to be viable economically. It takes a while for an elephant to grow tusks (as in decades). > Cows aren't going extinct anytime soon, why can't the same market force apply to elephants and rhinos? Domesticated cows might not, but their wild ancestors went extinct some 400 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs). What this would do is make the market for ivory even bigger and there wouldn't be anything preventing poachers from hunting wild elephants to extinction. If anything, it would make the extinction even faster. You aren't the first person to suggest this idea but it's extremely stupid regardless. As in, I cannot understand how anyone would think that this is a better idea than banning sales of ivory.

cge 11y ago

At least looking at the California bill being considered: musical instruments would be exempted if they had documentation of being sufficiently old, and contained only a small amount of ivory. Antiques over 100 years old would also be exempted, but only those containing less than 5% ivory by volume. This would seem to ban the sale of a wide variety of antiques and artworks. I'm not sure about the volumes, for example, but I expect it would ban the sale of many Georgian-era hair-on-ivory paintings and ivory portrait miniatures, amongst other things.

snowwrestler 11y ago

Usually there are exceptions for old pianos, but just as a thought experiment: imagine if you had to choose between selling your piano, and the extinction of elephants. Which would you choose?