6 ms·

Is this even a problem in the states? Only I've ever seen is faux-ivory. "The United States is the second-largest market globally for illegal wildlife products

Is this even a problem in the states? Only I've ever seen is faux-ivory. "The United States is the second-largest market globally for illegal wildlife products after China, and it still allows trade in ivory acquired before a worldwide ban in 1989." This doesn't seem like an issue to me.

adamnemecek 11y ago
> This doesn't seem like an issue to me. How is it not an issue? Are you concerned about extinction of species?
- buckbova 11y ago
  > ivory acquired before a worldwide ban in 1989 This allows those who own ivory, potential many historical, to trade in those pieces. How does this contribute to extinction? Unless there's time travel involved.
  - adamnemecek 11y ago
    Because it a.) sustains a market for ivory b.) a lot of ivory has falsified paperwork c.) enforcement of these rules is costly and there isn't enough people to do it http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/overwhelmed-us-port-inspectors-unable-to-keep-up-with-illegal-wildlife-trade/2014/10/17/2fc72086-fe42-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/overwh.... For example, the Fish and Wildlife service in New York has 6 employees which are supposed to be checking all cargo coming to NYC and NJ. That's very few people for the job.
    - mcmahoniel 11y ago
      Maybe we need to start embedding RFID chips into (or laser etching) the existing ivory supply linking to a centralized database for confirmation.
      - Phlarp 11y ago
        b.) A lot of ivory has falsified paperwork. A centralized database just creates a lucrative side business for the sysadmins.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    Guessing: fake pre-1989 ivory (false certificates etc) made from recently killed elephants. There are also lots of other endangered species, though the big mammals make the biggest news stories.
ekanes 11y ago
A clearer way to send a message or take a stand is to be absolute. "No ivory sold here" is stronger and clearer than "Some ivory is fine, depending on how old it is"
- peapicker 11y ago
  So my 1920's piano would then be illegal to sell, just because it has ivory on the keys?
  - Phlarp 11y ago
    If so, there have to be better ways to fight poaching. Why not legalize it? Given how large the current black market is "farming" ivory has to be a viable enterprise at some level. Cows aren't going extinct anytime soon, why can't the same market force apply to elephants and rhinos?
    - wavefunction 11y ago
      Probably because cows are domesticated and rhinos and elephants aren't.
    - adamnemecek 11y ago
      > If so, there have to be better ways to fight poaching. Better than banning the sales? How is legalizing it better? Because some people would be able to resell their old piano? You have a pretty dumb definition of better. > Why not legalize it? The current poaching epidemic is due to relaxation of CITES restriction of ivory trade in 2008 (I think). The poaching issues wasn't as bad until then. So "legalization" is what got us here in the first place. > Given how large the current black market is "farming" ivory has to be a viable enterprise at some level. Right, let's inflict pain and suffering on an entires species of extremely intelligent creatures so that we can keep making some shitty trinkets. Besides the ethical issues, it's also unlikely to be viable economically. It takes a while for an elephant to grow tusks (as in decades). > Cows aren't going extinct anytime soon, why can't the same market force apply to elephants and rhinos? Domesticated cows might not, but their wild ancestors went extinct some 400 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs). What this would do is make the market for ivory even bigger and there wouldn't be anything preventing poachers from hunting wild elephants to extinction. If anything, it would make the extinction even faster. You aren't the first person to suggest this idea but it's extremely stupid regardless. As in, I cannot understand how anyone would think that this is a better idea than banning sales of ivory.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
We've stopped dealing in it, except for whatever was grandfathered in 20+ years ago. Meanwhile, animal welfare in China is an absolutely nightmare with many rare and endangered animals ground down into "sex powder" or whatever superstitious nonsense still rules Chinese culture and Chinese "alternative" medicine, which is a very popular pseudo-science. Its only recently that China outlawed things like tiger penis and rhino horn, but the damage has already been done. China is still very much behind the times. Also the statistic of 70% of Chinese not knowing where ivory comes from is a scary prospect as selling the concept of more animal rights to people ignorant of the basics of the animal trade will be an uphill battle. https://news.vice.com/article/china-outlaws-the-eating-of-tiger-penis-rhino-horn-and-other-endangered-animal-products https://news.vice.com/article/china-outlaws-the-eating-of-ti...

adamnemecek 11y ago

> This doesn't seem like an issue to me. How is it not an issue? Are you concerned about extinction of species?

buckbova 11y ago
> ivory acquired before a worldwide ban in 1989 This allows those who own ivory, potential many historical, to trade in those pieces. How does this contribute to extinction? Unless there's time travel involved.
- adamnemecek 11y ago
  Because it a.) sustains a market for ivory b.) a lot of ivory has falsified paperwork c.) enforcement of these rules is costly and there isn't enough people to do it http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/overwhelmed-us-port-inspectors-unable-to-keep-up-with-illegal-wildlife-trade/2014/10/17/2fc72086-fe42-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/overwh.... For example, the Fish and Wildlife service in New York has 6 employees which are supposed to be checking all cargo coming to NYC and NJ. That's very few people for the job.
  - mcmahoniel 11y ago
    Maybe we need to start embedding RFID chips into (or laser etching) the existing ivory supply linking to a centralized database for confirmation.
    - Phlarp 11y ago
      b.) A lot of ivory has falsified paperwork. A centralized database just creates a lucrative side business for the sysadmins.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Symbiote 11y ago
  Guessing: fake pre-1989 ivory (false certificates etc) made from recently killed elephants. There are also lots of other endangered species, though the big mammals make the biggest news stories.

ekanes 11y ago

A clearer way to send a message or take a stand is to be absolute. "No ivory sold here" is stronger and clearer than "Some ivory is fine, depending on how old it is"

peapicker 11y ago
So my 1920's piano would then be illegal to sell, just because it has ivory on the keys?
- Phlarp 11y ago
  If so, there have to be better ways to fight poaching. Why not legalize it? Given how large the current black market is "farming" ivory has to be a viable enterprise at some level. Cows aren't going extinct anytime soon, why can't the same market force apply to elephants and rhinos?
  - wavefunction 11y ago
    Probably because cows are domesticated and rhinos and elephants aren't.
  - adamnemecek 11y ago
    > If so, there have to be better ways to fight poaching. Better than banning the sales? How is legalizing it better? Because some people would be able to resell their old piano? You have a pretty dumb definition of better. > Why not legalize it? The current poaching epidemic is due to relaxation of CITES restriction of ivory trade in 2008 (I think). The poaching issues wasn't as bad until then. So "legalization" is what got us here in the first place. > Given how large the current black market is "farming" ivory has to be a viable enterprise at some level. Right, let's inflict pain and suffering on an entires species of extremely intelligent creatures so that we can keep making some shitty trinkets. Besides the ethical issues, it's also unlikely to be viable economically. It takes a while for an elephant to grow tusks (as in decades). > Cows aren't going extinct anytime soon, why can't the same market force apply to elephants and rhinos? Domesticated cows might not, but their wild ancestors went extinct some 400 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs). What this would do is make the market for ivory even bigger and there wouldn't be anything preventing poachers from hunting wild elephants to extinction. If anything, it would make the extinction even faster. You aren't the first person to suggest this idea but it's extremely stupid regardless. As in, I cannot understand how anyone would think that this is a better idea than banning sales of ivory.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

We've stopped dealing in it, except for whatever was grandfathered in 20+ years ago. Meanwhile, animal welfare in China is an absolutely nightmare with many rare and endangered animals ground down into "sex powder" or whatever superstitious nonsense still rules Chinese culture and Chinese "alternative" medicine, which is a very popular pseudo-science. Its only recently that China outlawed things like tiger penis and rhino horn, but the damage has already been done. China is still very much behind the times. Also the statistic of 70% of Chinese not knowing where ivory comes from is a scary prospect as selling the concept of more animal rights to people ignorant of the basics of the animal trade will be an uphill battle. https://news.vice.com/article/china-outlaws-the-eating-of-tiger-penis-rhino-horn-and-other-endangered-animal-products https://news.vice.com/article/china-outlaws-the-eating-of-ti...