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Any effort to formulate ta'arof is futile. The three times rule mentioned in the article is an oversimplification. Ta'arof is a very subtle art and understandin

Any effort to formulate ta'arof is futile. The three times rule mentioned in the article is an oversimplification. Ta'arof is a very subtle art and understanding the difference between genuine and fake ta'arof and when to stop is difficult at best. I am an Iranian and I still have trouble playing this game. I hope I will figure it out sometime before my 50s. By the way, that phrase doesn't ring a bell. Is it possible that your friend is Azeri (Turkish), Kurd, or Arab? Because Farsi is not the only language spoken in Iran and definitely not the only language in which you are expected to ta'arof.

vanderZwan 11y ago
It sounds like the ambiguity of it all is a feature, which makes me think of this wonderful RSA Animate of Steve Pinker's discussion of how we use language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-son3EJTrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-son3EJTrU I have a feeling a lot of the insights of this talk also hint at why something ta'arof can be useful to a human society.
- Johnny_Brahms 11y ago
  Ambiguity is a large part of social interactions. A polite conversation is very much about no one losing face, where ambiguity or small hints helps a lot in keeping things subtle. You can nudge subjects without actually saying anything to anyone's face.
Johnny_Brahms 11y ago
I asked him about it, and apparently he was just a bit socially awkward. He told me he thought she looked like an arabic full blood horse and how he was so fascinated by it. He just failed badly at expressing it as a compliment. He is very much Iranian, and left because of political repercussions after the "Green Revolution" made it impossible for him to work internationally.
- smnrchrds 11y ago
  I am not questioning his nationality, I just asked about his ethnicity. I am an Iranian national from Azari (Turkic) ethnicity. We are not exactly a minority either. By some estimates more than 20 million Iranians are Azeri. [1] Fun Political Fact: The current supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, and the currently incarcerated leader of the opposition (he was arrested after 2009 elections), Mir-Hossein Mousavi, are both Azeri. I just wanted to point out that Azeris are by and large Iranian. We share most culture and costums, but we have a different language and cuisine. Fun Historical Fact: Azerbaijan and Iran have historically been the same country. Safavid [2] and Qajar [3] dynasties which collectively ruled Iran for ~400 years were Azeri. It was less than 200 years ago that Iran lost half of Azerbaijan to Russia in a war [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turkmenchay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turkmenchay
skeuomorf 11y ago
Coincidentally the word Ta'arof in Arabic roughly translates to "Getting to know each other". And regarding that horse phrase, in Egypt we sometimes refer to a sexy woman as "Faras" which literally translates to horse and it's somewhat a reference to the curvaceous nature of a woman.
baby 11y ago
> Any effort to formulate ta'arof is futile. The three times rule mentioned in the article is an oversimplification I could relate to the chinese doing exactly the same thing when the restaurant bill has to be payed. Or if you have to knock glasses to cheer.

vanderZwan 11y ago

It sounds like the ambiguity of it all is a feature, which makes me think of this wonderful RSA Animate of Steve Pinker's discussion of how we use language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-son3EJTrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-son3EJTrU I have a feeling a lot of the insights of this talk also hint at why something ta'arof can be useful to a human society.

Johnny_Brahms 11y ago
Ambiguity is a large part of social interactions. A polite conversation is very much about no one losing face, where ambiguity or small hints helps a lot in keeping things subtle. You can nudge subjects without actually saying anything to anyone's face.

Johnny_Brahms 11y ago

I asked him about it, and apparently he was just a bit socially awkward. He told me he thought she looked like an arabic full blood horse and how he was so fascinated by it. He just failed badly at expressing it as a compliment. He is very much Iranian, and left because of political repercussions after the "Green Revolution" made it impossible for him to work internationally.

smnrchrds 11y ago
I am not questioning his nationality, I just asked about his ethnicity. I am an Iranian national from Azari (Turkic) ethnicity. We are not exactly a minority either. By some estimates more than 20 million Iranians are Azeri. [1] Fun Political Fact: The current supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, and the currently incarcerated leader of the opposition (he was arrested after 2009 elections), Mir-Hossein Mousavi, are both Azeri. I just wanted to point out that Azeris are by and large Iranian. We share most culture and costums, but we have a different language and cuisine. Fun Historical Fact: Azerbaijan and Iran have historically been the same country. Safavid [2] and Qajar [3] dynasties which collectively ruled Iran for ~400 years were Azeri. It was less than 200 years ago that Iran lost half of Azerbaijan to Russia in a war [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turkmenchay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turkmenchay

skeuomorf 11y ago

Coincidentally the word Ta'arof in Arabic roughly translates to "Getting to know each other". And regarding that horse phrase, in Egypt we sometimes refer to a sexy woman as "Faras" which literally translates to horse and it's somewhat a reference to the curvaceous nature of a woman.

baby 11y ago

> Any effort to formulate ta'arof is futile. The three times rule mentioned in the article is an oversimplification I could relate to the chinese doing exactly the same thing when the restaurant bill has to be payed. Or if you have to knock glasses to cheer.