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>I would hazard (but of course do not know) that I know more about the subject than you do I have read two books from defectors, who I imagine had more persona

>I would hazard (but of course do not know) that I know more about the subject than you do I have read two books from defectors, who I imagine had more personal involvement and first-hand experience than some western tourist who fancies himself an expert because he went cycling there once. Tourism isn't the wonderful learning experience you make it out to be. Its, by its nature, 100% artificial. You have no skin in this game. You can walk out at any time and your money is coveted so you get treated and handled a certain way compared to a local. Tourism doesn't teach you jack shit about the country you're visiting and I say this as someone with two passports who visits his parent's native country frequently. I am not an expert on that country even though speak the language, have family there, etc. I just dont have skin in the game and when I'm there I'm treated like a tourist - not a local. I dont ever have to interview for a job there, deal with the authorities really, pay taxes, deal with the local mafioso/crooked cops/bad government past a superficial level, deal with any of the everyday grind outside of tourist framework, serve in their military, etc. I wish more North Korean apologists understood this. Instead we have an online army of Dennis Rodmans trivializing the human rights catastrophe in North Korea because the food they were served was okay and the locals all smiled as you drove past in your air conditioned bus.

EliRivers 11y ago
Yes, I've read those and all the others. I don't see your point. Did I say that I know more about it than them? No. Did I say that I know more about it than you? Yes. Should you get all defensive about that? No. These things happen. Did I say that tourism was some kind of magic bullet? No. I'm saying that the place is not some kind of vast, elaborate stage-show being run for the purpose of giving tourists something to look at. That's what I said. I wish more North Korean apologists understood this. To be fair, you didn't actually call me an apologist (which is nice because that's a astonishingly offensive thing to call someone). I think I was pretty clear in my earlier comments - grotesque, deprivation, malnutrition and so on. I have said here before that the continuing existence of the nation is a stain on the soul of humanity. There is a huge difference between presenting fact, and being an apologist.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  What's offensive is that you had no moral problem giving money to such a brutal and repressive regime while believing said regime is a stain on the soul of humanity. you talked, in another post on here, that one can bicycle in North Korea or run in the Pyonyang marathon. Those are great things to do in a country that is a stain on the soul of humanity. Giving money to this regime makes you part of the problem.
  - comrade1 11y ago
    And yet people pay taxes to the u.s., a brutal and desparate country where the state regularly tortures people in prison, puts its citizens to death innocent or guilty, and sponsors some of the worse terrorists on the planet. The u.s. has far more affect than nk when it comes to misery.
crdoconnor 11y ago
I'd be skeptical of some of the more outlandish defector testimonies. They have a strong incentive to exaggerate and invent stories, and owing to the relative seclusion of North Korea, it's pretty easy to not get called on it. Many of the defector testimonies also comes from the mid 90s, when North Korea was undergoing a famine, and while that famine was really severe, it was still 20 years ago and their malnutrition levels have plunged precipitously since. If it were still that bad today, probably the regime would have collapsed already. Tourism in the country is very controlled, but it's not 100%. Kernels of truth will slip through. Honestly, the propaganda and the truth is quite easy to distinguish, too - their propaganda is very unsophisticated and pretty blunt and not every tour guide is a mindless brainwashed automaton.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  >They have a strong incentive to exaggerate and invent stories, and owing to the relative seclusion of North Korea, it's pretty easy to not get called on it. So anything that contradicts North Korea state propaganda must be untrue? Oh, ok.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    You know, you could just swap the phrase "North Korea state propaganda" with "American impeeeerialists" (you must draw out the e) and you'd sound exactly of like one of them.
gambiting 11y ago
Would you understand United States of America better if you read a book by someone who was in an American prison,or if you went on a cycling trip throughout the entire country? How about doing both? They are not mutually exclusive you know.

EliRivers 11y ago

Yes, I've read those and all the others. I don't see your point. Did I say that I know more about it than them? No. Did I say that I know more about it than you? Yes. Should you get all defensive about that? No. These things happen. Did I say that tourism was some kind of magic bullet? No. I'm saying that the place is not some kind of vast, elaborate stage-show being run for the purpose of giving tourists something to look at. That's what I said. I wish more North Korean apologists understood this. To be fair, you didn't actually call me an apologist (which is nice because that's a astonishingly offensive thing to call someone). I think I was pretty clear in my earlier comments - grotesque, deprivation, malnutrition and so on. I have said here before that the continuing existence of the nation is a stain on the soul of humanity. There is a huge difference between presenting fact, and being an apologist.

yequalsx 11y ago
What's offensive is that you had no moral problem giving money to such a brutal and repressive regime while believing said regime is a stain on the soul of humanity. you talked, in another post on here, that one can bicycle in North Korea or run in the Pyonyang marathon. Those are great things to do in a country that is a stain on the soul of humanity. Giving money to this regime makes you part of the problem.
- comrade1 11y ago
  And yet people pay taxes to the u.s., a brutal and desparate country where the state regularly tortures people in prison, puts its citizens to death innocent or guilty, and sponsors some of the worse terrorists on the planet. The u.s. has far more affect than nk when it comes to misery.

crdoconnor 11y ago

I'd be skeptical of some of the more outlandish defector testimonies. They have a strong incentive to exaggerate and invent stories, and owing to the relative seclusion of North Korea, it's pretty easy to not get called on it. Many of the defector testimonies also comes from the mid 90s, when North Korea was undergoing a famine, and while that famine was really severe, it was still 20 years ago and their malnutrition levels have plunged precipitously since. If it were still that bad today, probably the regime would have collapsed already. Tourism in the country is very controlled, but it's not 100%. Kernels of truth will slip through. Honestly, the propaganda and the truth is quite easy to distinguish, too - their propaganda is very unsophisticated and pretty blunt and not every tour guide is a mindless brainwashed automaton.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
>They have a strong incentive to exaggerate and invent stories, and owing to the relative seclusion of North Korea, it's pretty easy to not get called on it. So anything that contradicts North Korea state propaganda must be untrue? Oh, ok.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  You know, you could just swap the phrase "North Korea state propaganda" with "American impeeeerialists" (you must draw out the e) and you'd sound exactly of like one of them.

gambiting 11y ago

Would you understand United States of America better if you read a book by someone who was in an American prison,or if you went on a cycling trip throughout the entire country? How about doing both? They are not mutually exclusive you know.