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Having been there on holiday myself, the only way to ensure that everything is pre-selected and engineered would be to effectively shut down the entire city (in

Having been there on holiday myself, the only way to ensure that everything is pre-selected and engineered would be to effectively shut down the entire city (indeed, every city and town I went to), and create a kind of bubble around each of our buses (and, when we switched to foot, around each pocket of walking tourists); fake cities filled with actors, all standing and doing nothing until someone shouts "The bus is almost visible" at which point they break into action like a pack of extras on a Hollywood set, pretending to be walking somewhere as the bus passes, only to stop as soon as it's out of sight. Everyone's life on permanent hold, just waiting to show the tourists what it looks like when people walk on the pavement. What glory for the Fatherland that is! To say that "everything in these pictures is thoroughly and carefully pre-selected and even engineered" is simply not true.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
>effectively shut down the entire city So.. you guys were carefully corralled in the city? N Korea is mostly rural, with most of its population barely able to get enough calories to eat. Pyongyang is a propagandist show-room and is full of connected party types. Your average N Korean doesn't live that lifestyle. This is all fairly well documented by various sources, mostly via the oral histories of defectors: http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-Ordinary-Lives-North/dp/0385523912 http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-Ordinary-Lives-North/dp/0... http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Camp-14-Remarkable-Odyssey/dp/0143122916 http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Camp-14-Remarkable-Odyssey/dp/0... If you care to discredit these works, I will argue with you on a point to point basis. I have read both and other sources that describe the regime and everyday life in North Korea. Perhaps we can also get Dennis Rodman in here too but clearly you both are on the same page. Sadly, I find North Korea cheerleading often to be a biased political position tied to the usual pro-China HN crowd that finds fault with everything the US/EU do, thus anything the US/EU are critical of, must be good and any criticism of these regimes must be "western propaganda."
- EliRivers 11y ago
  So.. you guys were carefully corralled in the city? No. We travelled through rural regions as well; small towns and so forth. I saw (but did not go into) numerous very small villages. Those were not much more than a collection of buildings, generally with a dirt track leading to it from the road we were on. In the city, whilst walking with our two guides, the distance between the front walker and the rear walker was on the order of a hundred metres at times. When I went there, it was a significant national holiday. Some of the exhibition centres we went to had literally thousands of people flowing through them while we were there. We were in the crowds, mixing in with the people attending. Huge flows of people. At a military parade, we stepped off the bus and stood with the crowd to watch. On the underground, we stepped onto the carriages with the locals who were waiting for the train. A funfair in Pyongyang; huge, huge queues outside and inside. Enormous numbers of people milling about and again, our group wandered through them. I saw numerous signs of deprivation and malnutrition. I saw extensive evidence of a massive solid fuel shortage in recent years. I saw a lot of things that made it clear that the nation is, in many many ways, truly grotesque. I also saw an upright stuffed alligator on wheels holding a drinks tray that David Koresh of Waco fame had sent as a gift. I would hazard (but of course do not know) that I know more about the subject than you do (both before and after travelling there I read an enormous amount of the available literature and various collections of conference proceedings), and I have the additional evidence of my own eyes. The western media LOVES to spin stories about the DPRK, and the western public LOVES to read them. There is a lot - a LOT - wrong with the DPRK, but the media seem to be able to write pretty much anything they like and people want to believe it. You know what, go there and see it for yourself. Run in the Pyongyang marathon. Do a cycling tour.
  - abandonliberty 11y ago
    I'm curious about your perspective on this article, "North Korea: A nation of racist dwarfs" [0]http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/02/a_nation_of_racist_dwarfs.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_wor... I've nearly given up on understanding the reality of the situation. Are you Dennis Rodman? ;)
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    >I would hazard (but of course do not know) that I know more about the subject than you do I have read two books from defectors, who I imagine had more personal involvement and first-hand experience than some western tourist who fancies himself an expert because he went cycling there once. Tourism isn't the wonderful learning experience you make it out to be. Its, by its nature, 100% artificial. You have no skin in this game. You can walk out at any time and your money is coveted so you get treated and handled a certain way compared to a local. Tourism doesn't teach you jack shit about the country you're visiting and I say this as someone with two passports who visits his parent's native country frequently. I am not an expert on that country even though speak the language, have family there, etc. I just dont have skin in the game and when I'm there I'm treated like a tourist - not a local. I dont ever have to interview for a job there, deal with the authorities really, pay taxes, deal with the local mafioso/crooked cops/bad government past a superficial level, deal with any of the everyday grind outside of tourist framework, serve in their military, etc. I wish more North Korean apologists understood this. Instead we have an online army of Dennis Rodmans trivializing the human rights catastrophe in North Korea because the food they were served was okay and the locals all smiled as you drove past in your air conditioned bus.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >So.. you guys were carefully corralled in the city? N Korea is mostly rural, with most of its population barely able to get enough calories to eat. My tour group was driven through the countryside all the way to the border with South Korea, and I took the train all the way to China. I was very careful to get photos of as many villagers as possible during the whole length of the country. There was poverty, of course -they could hardly hide it - but to be honest, I've seen a lot worse even in rural China. The only thing that really set it apart from other 3rd world countries was the lack of vehicles. Buses between towns were sparse and incredibly overcrowded and a not-insignificant number of people appeared to be walking or cycling between towns. Ironically they had a gleaming six lane highway that the tour guide bragged about being built during the 'arduous march' (google it), killing a lot of the workers. With propaganda like that who needs lies?
  - EliRivers 11y ago
    I took the train all the way to China. Pyongyang to Dandong? I did that. Did you stay in Dandong? The contrast was a real mind screw. I sat in my hotel room in Dandong, overlooking the bridge; beneath me, Chinese boom town. Lights, cars, noise, street-hawkers, adverts. The bridge extending over the river, and half way across the coloured lights on it just stop. After that, darkness. No lights on the bridge, no lights on the land, nothing. I went to the True Love nightclub in Dandong, with the lights and the bouncing floor and the kids with tall hair and a floor show that was translated for me by a Singaporean accountant and a Canadian (both of whom I'd met in the DPRK), and self-medicated.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      I did not, no, but I've been to many other Chinese cities just like it. Sinuiju is still an industrial city, so I wouldn't describe it in quite those terms. Still, Dandong does provide a stark contrast, and goes some way to explaining why North Korea's list of "countries that have the best quality of life" has China at #1 and NK at #2. It's impossible to deny that China is getting rich.
billyhoffman 11y ago
North Korea has a history of doing crazy things to make things seem normal or better than they are. For example they built and have maintained an fake and empty village next to the DMZ for the last 50 years to try and entice the South Koreans to come north. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijong-dong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijong-dong North Korea is not a rational place.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  It was built in the 1950s when South Korea was still very, very poor. The idea of encouraging defections back then wasn't quite so crazy. I'm pretty sure that the village is actually inhabited now and has been for many years. Probably as soon as they realized that its propaganda value was limited. There's plenty of shit made up and printed in 'prestigious' media outlets about North Korea. If a story seems too crazy to be true, then there's a good chance that it actually isn't. Like yours, for instance.
  - billyhoffman 11y ago
    As of 2014, North Korea insists it a real village. The lights still come on at night. But anyone with binoculars can see the streets are empty. http://boingboing.net/2014/07/08/north-koreas-creepy-fake-civ.html http://boingboing.net/2014/07/08/north-koreas-creepy-fake-ci... It's not my "story" or "made up". It's 2 cited 3rd party articles. No reason to be a jerk to people contributing to the conversation.
abandonliberty 11y ago
And I thought the opening of the Beijing games was some impressive organization! I suspect that a sizable proportion of the population believes the situation you describe to be true; that is our propaganda.
yequalsx 11y ago
I have a hard time understanding why someone with a conscience would spend money in a brutal, repressive regime. Do you have any compunction about giving money that supports such a regime? Is there a level of brutality and oppression that would make you not want to directly support that brutality and oppression? EDIT: I seem to have hit a nerve. Is it always OK to vacation in a brutal regime? If so why? I'd love hear why directly giving money to the North Korean regime is an acceptable thing to do.
- im3w1l 11y ago
  You know how touristy places look more like each other than the genuine thing? Souvenir trash shops, tastes you are used to. People doing traditional stuff, except it's only a show and their souls are not in it. A sell out. I think that would be a good development.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

>effectively shut down the entire city So.. you guys were carefully corralled in the city? N Korea is mostly rural, with most of its population barely able to get enough calories to eat. Pyongyang is a propagandist show-room and is full of connected party types. Your average N Korean doesn't live that lifestyle. This is all fairly well documented by various sources, mostly via the oral histories of defectors: http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-Ordinary-Lives-North/dp/0385523912 http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-Ordinary-Lives-North/dp/0... http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Camp-14-Remarkable-Odyssey/dp/0143122916 http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Camp-14-Remarkable-Odyssey/dp/0... If you care to discredit these works, I will argue with you on a point to point basis. I have read both and other sources that describe the regime and everyday life in North Korea. Perhaps we can also get Dennis Rodman in here too but clearly you both are on the same page. Sadly, I find North Korea cheerleading often to be a biased political position tied to the usual pro-China HN crowd that finds fault with everything the US/EU do, thus anything the US/EU are critical of, must be good and any criticism of these regimes must be "western propaganda."

EliRivers 11y ago
So.. you guys were carefully corralled in the city? No. We travelled through rural regions as well; small towns and so forth. I saw (but did not go into) numerous very small villages. Those were not much more than a collection of buildings, generally with a dirt track leading to it from the road we were on. In the city, whilst walking with our two guides, the distance between the front walker and the rear walker was on the order of a hundred metres at times. When I went there, it was a significant national holiday. Some of the exhibition centres we went to had literally thousands of people flowing through them while we were there. We were in the crowds, mixing in with the people attending. Huge flows of people. At a military parade, we stepped off the bus and stood with the crowd to watch. On the underground, we stepped onto the carriages with the locals who were waiting for the train. A funfair in Pyongyang; huge, huge queues outside and inside. Enormous numbers of people milling about and again, our group wandered through them. I saw numerous signs of deprivation and malnutrition. I saw extensive evidence of a massive solid fuel shortage in recent years. I saw a lot of things that made it clear that the nation is, in many many ways, truly grotesque. I also saw an upright stuffed alligator on wheels holding a drinks tray that David Koresh of Waco fame had sent as a gift. I would hazard (but of course do not know) that I know more about the subject than you do (both before and after travelling there I read an enormous amount of the available literature and various collections of conference proceedings), and I have the additional evidence of my own eyes. The western media LOVES to spin stories about the DPRK, and the western public LOVES to read them. There is a lot - a LOT - wrong with the DPRK, but the media seem to be able to write pretty much anything they like and people want to believe it. You know what, go there and see it for yourself. Run in the Pyongyang marathon. Do a cycling tour.
- abandonliberty 11y ago
  I'm curious about your perspective on this article, "North Korea: A nation of racist dwarfs" [0]http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/02/a_nation_of_racist_dwarfs.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_wor... I've nearly given up on understanding the reality of the situation. Are you Dennis Rodman? ;)
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  >I would hazard (but of course do not know) that I know more about the subject than you do I have read two books from defectors, who I imagine had more personal involvement and first-hand experience than some western tourist who fancies himself an expert because he went cycling there once. Tourism isn't the wonderful learning experience you make it out to be. Its, by its nature, 100% artificial. You have no skin in this game. You can walk out at any time and your money is coveted so you get treated and handled a certain way compared to a local. Tourism doesn't teach you jack shit about the country you're visiting and I say this as someone with two passports who visits his parent's native country frequently. I am not an expert on that country even though speak the language, have family there, etc. I just dont have skin in the game and when I'm there I'm treated like a tourist - not a local. I dont ever have to interview for a job there, deal with the authorities really, pay taxes, deal with the local mafioso/crooked cops/bad government past a superficial level, deal with any of the everyday grind outside of tourist framework, serve in their military, etc. I wish more North Korean apologists understood this. Instead we have an online army of Dennis Rodmans trivializing the human rights catastrophe in North Korea because the food they were served was okay and the locals all smiled as you drove past in your air conditioned bus.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>So.. you guys were carefully corralled in the city? N Korea is mostly rural, with most of its population barely able to get enough calories to eat. My tour group was driven through the countryside all the way to the border with South Korea, and I took the train all the way to China. I was very careful to get photos of as many villagers as possible during the whole length of the country. There was poverty, of course -they could hardly hide it - but to be honest, I've seen a lot worse even in rural China. The only thing that really set it apart from other 3rd world countries was the lack of vehicles. Buses between towns were sparse and incredibly overcrowded and a not-insignificant number of people appeared to be walking or cycling between towns. Ironically they had a gleaming six lane highway that the tour guide bragged about being built during the 'arduous march' (google it), killing a lot of the workers. With propaganda like that who needs lies?
- EliRivers 11y ago
  I took the train all the way to China. Pyongyang to Dandong? I did that. Did you stay in Dandong? The contrast was a real mind screw. I sat in my hotel room in Dandong, overlooking the bridge; beneath me, Chinese boom town. Lights, cars, noise, street-hawkers, adverts. The bridge extending over the river, and half way across the coloured lights on it just stop. After that, darkness. No lights on the bridge, no lights on the land, nothing. I went to the True Love nightclub in Dandong, with the lights and the bouncing floor and the kids with tall hair and a floor show that was translated for me by a Singaporean accountant and a Canadian (both of whom I'd met in the DPRK), and self-medicated.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    I did not, no, but I've been to many other Chinese cities just like it. Sinuiju is still an industrial city, so I wouldn't describe it in quite those terms. Still, Dandong does provide a stark contrast, and goes some way to explaining why North Korea's list of "countries that have the best quality of life" has China at #1 and NK at #2. It's impossible to deny that China is getting rich.

billyhoffman 11y ago

North Korea has a history of doing crazy things to make things seem normal or better than they are. For example they built and have maintained an fake and empty village next to the DMZ for the last 50 years to try and entice the South Koreans to come north. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijong-dong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijong-dong North Korea is not a rational place.

crdoconnor 11y ago
It was built in the 1950s when South Korea was still very, very poor. The idea of encouraging defections back then wasn't quite so crazy. I'm pretty sure that the village is actually inhabited now and has been for many years. Probably as soon as they realized that its propaganda value was limited. There's plenty of shit made up and printed in 'prestigious' media outlets about North Korea. If a story seems too crazy to be true, then there's a good chance that it actually isn't. Like yours, for instance.
- billyhoffman 11y ago
  As of 2014, North Korea insists it a real village. The lights still come on at night. But anyone with binoculars can see the streets are empty. http://boingboing.net/2014/07/08/north-koreas-creepy-fake-civ.html http://boingboing.net/2014/07/08/north-koreas-creepy-fake-ci... It's not my "story" or "made up". It's 2 cited 3rd party articles. No reason to be a jerk to people contributing to the conversation.

abandonliberty 11y ago

And I thought the opening of the Beijing games was some impressive organization! I suspect that a sizable proportion of the population believes the situation you describe to be true; that is our propaganda.

yequalsx 11y ago

I have a hard time understanding why someone with a conscience would spend money in a brutal, repressive regime. Do you have any compunction about giving money that supports such a regime? Is there a level of brutality and oppression that would make you not want to directly support that brutality and oppression? EDIT: I seem to have hit a nerve. Is it always OK to vacation in a brutal regime? If so why? I'd love hear why directly giving money to the North Korean regime is an acceptable thing to do.

im3w1l 11y ago
You know how touristy places look more like each other than the genuine thing? Souvenir trash shops, tastes you are used to. People doing traditional stuff, except it's only a show and their souls are not in it. A sell out. I think that would be a good development.