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Microsoft’s 7 Foot Surface Hub Wall-Computer Will Set You Back a Cool $19,999

42 points by Errorcod3 11y ago

ChuckMcM 11y ago
I found the reporting wanting (but this is techcrunch :-) but lately have been thinking about this sort of application. Sort of an office view screen. Now that I've got a bunch more people I interact with regularly all around the world this sort of thing is more useful. But $20K isn't the price point where I expect these to take off. Especially given that a 4K 84" TV (http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-84LM9600-84-Inch-LED-LCD/dp/B00B10UAAS http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-84LM9600-84-Inch-LED-LC...) is about $8k and a really nice machine to drive it and to OCV vision for knowing where you are touching it is less than $2K, the "make it" seems to be so much less than the "buy it" choice I wonder if it loses on that basis. From a practicality point of view having a "whiteboard" that you can bring from meeting to meeting seems like a win, and if you can share it with someone else's screen in a remote location even better. And since you're probably replacing a projector set up in your conference room ($3K for a 1080p projector, $1.5K for a more modest one) that is a benefit. I wonder if they will have these in their stores, it would be interesting to see one operate.
- josefresco 11y ago
  "But $20K isn't the price point where I expect these to take off." In the article they state that competing systems cost $38K - An almost 50% reduction in price certainly seems like a good way to get this to "take off" in the enterprise market.
- wlesieutre 11y ago
  $7,000 for the 55" version. I'd expect a lot of businesses could get by with that.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - dpark 11y ago
      You realize that the Vizio isn't a touchscreen, right? And doesn't have pen input? And doesn't have built-in cameras? The two aren't really comparable. There's also significant value in having an integrated package rather than a bunch of disparate components that your in-house IT has to own supporting. This is the kind of flawed comparison people make when they compare iMac prices to home-built PCs. Sure, you can put something together for a lower price that has all the same functionality. But you'll have a rats nest of cabling, a big box sitting on your floor, a lower-quality experience, and a lot more time invested. There's big value in a turn-key, "it just works" solution. Disclosure: Microsoft employee, but not involved in this
- existencebox 11y ago
  Re: how they operate, we have one in the conference room near my desk. It's fine for projecting small meetings, the touch functionality is occasionally useful (but I don't think I'm the target audience). The biggest issue for me is that while a projector can generate a much larger image and a whiteboard can provide a much larger single working space, scaling sufficiently to match either of those would be tricky.
  - ChuckMcM 11y ago
    That is a good data point. How small is a 'small' meeting? 5 people? 10 people? 20 people? When I was at Google they experimented with some smart whiteboards, it was not a successful experiment but most of that was trying to 'sync' between multiple rooms was a pain and at the time a "40" screen considered pretty big. My interest started when I looked at replacing the whiteboard I have in my home office with something that was dual use like this. The newest generation 'NUC' computers can drive a 4K screen at 30hz so one of the cheaper 4K TVs might be a replacement.
    - existencebox 11y ago
      With a table facing the screen lengthwise and seating on both sides of it, by ~6 people you're 3 deep away from the screen, and things start to get a bit small. You can zoom in, resize diagrams, but at least for content originally designed for a standard desktop web browser, there ended up being a decent amount of cropping with what I experienced; this is a tradeoff against increased meeting size, although it is certainly possible. (I guess as a caveat, it would depend heavily on the content type. We were looking heavily at UML style diagrams, with reasonable amounts of text, the latter necessitating zooming while the former forced zooming to crop some of the diagram.) I've always wondered why we never took a page out of the book of the old projection monitors, with some sort of semi-opaque screen with a rear projector, and vision sensors on the front for touch. It'd make wall mounting it hard, but if you got very clever with the projector location and how you focus the image, you may be able to shrink the depth. (I've desired a similar smart whiteboard, but the added value over a standard ~3-400$ whole wall board is hard bought at this price point, especially without the size benefit)
kyriakos 11y ago
The price point is good for enterprise but don't expect to see them around. Surface Hub is huge opportunity though for other applications in markets that can't afford it.
josteink 11y ago
If you can afford Cisco's equivalent stuff you can afford this. Still: probably not a product they expect immense amount of orders for at this point.
bitwize 11y ago
So their market is large corps that want to show off, and set designers for James Bond movies and police procedurals. (Can definitely see this on the likes of CSI: Cyber.)
- zamalek 11y ago
  > Can definitely see this on the likes of CSI: Cyber. The Surface is already used to a point of absurdity in NCIS - they use what looks like the previous iteration of this as well as Surface RTs.
- sremani 11y ago
  You can whiteboard for people in the office and simultaneously screen-cast for those not in office. I can see how this can be used, especially since many of us have distributed teams.
higherpurpose 11y ago
I assume you're going to hear the fans on those things?
coldcode 11y ago
Why are expensive things described as cool?
- stevesearer 11y ago
  It seems to be Antiphrasis: 'The use of a word or phrase in a sense contrary to its normal meaning for ironic or humorous effect' [1] A common example I was able to find used cool with reference to hot temperatures, "it was a cool 110 degrees outside". Perhaps writers extended the use of cool from high temperatures to towards high dollar amounts as well to achieve a similar effect? Maybe 'A cool $20k' sounds better than 'An inexpensive $20k'? Though 'a mere $20k' would be another option which also sounds nice. [1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/antiphrasis http://www.thefreedictionary.com/antiphrasis [2] http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/81689/what-is-the-correct-term-for-this-juxtaposition-of-words http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/81689/what-is-the...
- dpark 11y ago
  It provides emphasis. It's been used for centuries (literally). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cool http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cool > Applied since 1728 to large sums of money to give emphasis to amount... Also used in Great Expectations. http://literature.org/authors/dickens-charles/great-expectations/chapter-57.html http://literature.org/authors/dickens-charles/great-expectat... > leaving a cool four thousand to Mr Matthew Pocket
rektide 11y ago
Surface Hub == Big touchscreen TV, computer, MS Windows, true or false? Is there more to it than the packaging, and is this the only way to get that "more"?
distantsounds 11y ago
$20k for something like this isn't exactly astronomical, I don't see how the pricing is absurd. Does anyone here even do hardware purchasing? Do you know how much a 1U or 2U pizza box can cost? Hint: Depending on specs, at least $10k USD, if not more. If companies can find an application that fits their needs, the cost is justified.
- mey 11y ago
  We have a few Cisco TelePresence MX Series so this price range for that functionality is not absurd and with even better functionality (on paper).
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    How much ballpark does a Cisco TelePresence MX cost?
    - mey 11y ago
      5-40k (USD) per room depending on configuration. Not sure how much the backend servers cost. Under the hood it's XMPP basically. I will say they are solid and work very well compared to our previous home built solutions or Mondopads. Downside is they really are presentation/video solutions. (Edit: also cost) Whiteboarding is not something they do. Edit2: Also they are not self contained computers like the Microsoft Surface Hub solution (which is good and bad)
- melling 11y ago
  The current price is irrelevant as long as there's a market. Ten years from now it will be 1/10 the cost, perhaps even less. What's critical is that there is a healthy market to pay for the continued development. Look at Tesla, for example, they are starting at the high-end then moving down market. It's a common technique.
- samstave 11y ago
  Yeah, this is actually a good price -- compare this to Oblong's system that started at 60K. http://www.oblong.com/ http://www.oblong.com/
agentultra 11y ago
I wonder when we'll get to the wall-screens of Fahrenheit 451.
ourmandave 11y ago
Aw come on! I gotta make my app look good on screens from 5" to 7 feet?
VOYD 11y ago
I've been working with these for the last couple weeks, and I must admit it's pretty well done and incredibly useful for whiteboard brainstorming. Just the ability to have shared documentation updated in real time is very productive.

42 points by Errorcod3 11y ago

I found the reporting wanting (but this is techcrunch :-) but lately have been thinking about this sort of application. Sort of an office view screen. Now that I've got a bunch more people I interact with regularly all around the world this sort of thing is more useful. But $20K isn't the price point where I expect these to take off. Especially given that a 4K 84" TV (http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-84LM9600-84-Inch-LED-LCD/dp/B00B10UAAS http://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-84LM9600-84-Inch-LED-LC...) is about $8k and a really nice machine to drive it and to OCV vision for knowing where you are touching it is less than $2K, the "make it" seems to be so much less than the "buy it" choice I wonder if it loses on that basis. From a practicality point of view having a "whiteboard" that you can bring from meeting to meeting seems like a win, and if you can share it with someone else's screen in a remote location even better. And since you're probably replacing a projector set up in your conference room ($3K for a 1080p projector, $1.5K for a more modest one) that is a benefit. I wonder if they will have these in their stores, it would be interesting to see one operate.

josefresco 11y ago
"But $20K isn't the price point where I expect these to take off." In the article they state that competing systems cost $38K - An almost 50% reduction in price certainly seems like a good way to get this to "take off" in the enterprise market.
wlesieutre 11y ago
$7,000 for the 55" version. I'd expect a lot of businesses could get by with that.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - dpark 11y ago
    You realize that the Vizio isn't a touchscreen, right? And doesn't have pen input? And doesn't have built-in cameras? The two aren't really comparable. There's also significant value in having an integrated package rather than a bunch of disparate components that your in-house IT has to own supporting. This is the kind of flawed comparison people make when they compare iMac prices to home-built PCs. Sure, you can put something together for a lower price that has all the same functionality. But you'll have a rats nest of cabling, a big box sitting on your floor, a lower-quality experience, and a lot more time invested. There's big value in a turn-key, "it just works" solution. Disclosure: Microsoft employee, but not involved in this
existencebox 11y ago
Re: how they operate, we have one in the conference room near my desk. It's fine for projecting small meetings, the touch functionality is occasionally useful (but I don't think I'm the target audience). The biggest issue for me is that while a projector can generate a much larger image and a whiteboard can provide a much larger single working space, scaling sufficiently to match either of those would be tricky.
- ChuckMcM 11y ago
  That is a good data point. How small is a 'small' meeting? 5 people? 10 people? 20 people? When I was at Google they experimented with some smart whiteboards, it was not a successful experiment but most of that was trying to 'sync' between multiple rooms was a pain and at the time a "40" screen considered pretty big. My interest started when I looked at replacing the whiteboard I have in my home office with something that was dual use like this. The newest generation 'NUC' computers can drive a 4K screen at 30hz so one of the cheaper 4K TVs might be a replacement.
  - existencebox 11y ago
    With a table facing the screen lengthwise and seating on both sides of it, by ~6 people you're 3 deep away from the screen, and things start to get a bit small. You can zoom in, resize diagrams, but at least for content originally designed for a standard desktop web browser, there ended up being a decent amount of cropping with what I experienced; this is a tradeoff against increased meeting size, although it is certainly possible. (I guess as a caveat, it would depend heavily on the content type. We were looking heavily at UML style diagrams, with reasonable amounts of text, the latter necessitating zooming while the former forced zooming to crop some of the diagram.) I've always wondered why we never took a page out of the book of the old projection monitors, with some sort of semi-opaque screen with a rear projector, and vision sensors on the front for touch. It'd make wall mounting it hard, but if you got very clever with the projector location and how you focus the image, you may be able to shrink the depth. (I've desired a similar smart whiteboard, but the added value over a standard ~3-400$ whole wall board is hard bought at this price point, especially without the size benefit)

kyriakos 11y ago

The price point is good for enterprise but don't expect to see them around. Surface Hub is huge opportunity though for other applications in markets that can't afford it.

josteink 11y ago

If you can afford Cisco's equivalent stuff you can afford this. Still: probably not a product they expect immense amount of orders for at this point.

bitwize 11y ago

So their market is large corps that want to show off, and set designers for James Bond movies and police procedurals. (Can definitely see this on the likes of CSI: Cyber.)

zamalek 11y ago
> Can definitely see this on the likes of CSI: Cyber. The Surface is already used to a point of absurdity in NCIS - they use what looks like the previous iteration of this as well as Surface RTs.
sremani 11y ago
You can whiteboard for people in the office and simultaneously screen-cast for those not in office. I can see how this can be used, especially since many of us have distributed teams.

higherpurpose 11y ago

I assume you're going to hear the fans on those things?

coldcode 11y ago

Why are expensive things described as cool?

stevesearer 11y ago
It seems to be Antiphrasis: 'The use of a word or phrase in a sense contrary to its normal meaning for ironic or humorous effect' [1] A common example I was able to find used cool with reference to hot temperatures, "it was a cool 110 degrees outside". Perhaps writers extended the use of cool from high temperatures to towards high dollar amounts as well to achieve a similar effect? Maybe 'A cool $20k' sounds better than 'An inexpensive $20k'? Though 'a mere $20k' would be another option which also sounds nice. [1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/antiphrasis http://www.thefreedictionary.com/antiphrasis [2] http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/81689/what-is-the-correct-term-for-this-juxtaposition-of-words http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/81689/what-is-the...
dpark 11y ago
It provides emphasis. It's been used for centuries (literally). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cool http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cool > Applied since 1728 to large sums of money to give emphasis to amount... Also used in Great Expectations. http://literature.org/authors/dickens-charles/great-expectations/chapter-57.html http://literature.org/authors/dickens-charles/great-expectat... > leaving a cool four thousand to Mr Matthew Pocket

rektide 11y ago

Surface Hub == Big touchscreen TV, computer, MS Windows, true or false? Is there more to it than the packaging, and is this the only way to get that "more"?

distantsounds 11y ago

$20k for something like this isn't exactly astronomical, I don't see how the pricing is absurd. Does anyone here even do hardware purchasing? Do you know how much a 1U or 2U pizza box can cost? Hint: Depending on specs, at least $10k USD, if not more. If companies can find an application that fits their needs, the cost is justified.

mey 11y ago
We have a few Cisco TelePresence MX Series so this price range for that functionality is not absurd and with even better functionality (on paper).
- Someone1234 11y ago
  How much ballpark does a Cisco TelePresence MX cost?
  - mey 11y ago
    5-40k (USD) per room depending on configuration. Not sure how much the backend servers cost. Under the hood it's XMPP basically. I will say they are solid and work very well compared to our previous home built solutions or Mondopads. Downside is they really are presentation/video solutions. (Edit: also cost) Whiteboarding is not something they do. Edit2: Also they are not self contained computers like the Microsoft Surface Hub solution (which is good and bad)
melling 11y ago
The current price is irrelevant as long as there's a market. Ten years from now it will be 1/10 the cost, perhaps even less. What's critical is that there is a healthy market to pay for the continued development. Look at Tesla, for example, they are starting at the high-end then moving down market. It's a common technique.
samstave 11y ago
Yeah, this is actually a good price -- compare this to Oblong's system that started at 60K. http://www.oblong.com/ http://www.oblong.com/

agentultra 11y ago

I wonder when we'll get to the wall-screens of Fahrenheit 451.

ourmandave 11y ago

Aw come on! I gotta make my app look good on screens from 5" to 7 feet?

VOYD 11y ago

I've been working with these for the last couple weeks, and I must admit it's pretty well done and incredibly useful for whiteboard brainstorming. Just the ability to have shared documentation updated in real time is very productive.