5 ms·

While not burnout related, I found out a while back, and this is somewhat paradoxical, that if I care TOO much, I'm less happy. What happens is I notice all t

While not burnout related, I found out a while back, and this is somewhat paradoxical, that if I care TOO much, I'm less happy. What happens is I notice all the stuff I can't fix, or need to fix, and other people get stressed out making them fix it. The end result is that I stop caring quite as much (I still care), get happy, and then start caring too much again. It's especially hard at times when you have a lot of energy and want to make something work and you have to fight others who don't want to make it work. 8 hours plus of your day is a lot, so you want it to count, to matter, and that makes you care, to define yourself by that work, and that makes it hurt more. The alternative though, is just collecting the paycheck, which is also bad! The trick is finding a balance and making sure you also define yourself by other things. And this is a very hard thing for creative folks to do, because it feels like their art, and it's easy to always want to hit the next target/goal/feature, in a never ending wave. The catch is they don't stop. It's a continuum. One of my first jobs as a kid was in a grocery store, and I learned clearing out the line was impossible, and the beeping doesn't stop. It is madness to want the beeping to stop because people from other lanes just come over to yours, and it won't. I'm not great at this, but you just have to enjoy the people and the things along the way - as there's not a destination.

jfe 11y ago
ditto.
- zatkin 11y ago
  Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the upvoting feature is for.
  - votetardgjgjv 11y ago
    Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the downvoting feature is for.
    - Chronic31 11y ago
      Reposting: Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the downvoting feature is for.
  - mnglkhn2 11y ago
    The comment can be considered a meaningful contribution as well. Dialog is not only information but also flow enablers and/or facilitators. The fact that (s)he expressed sympathy/approval might show that others think the same, which in itself if a tidbit, if not too small. But it can greatly help others to chime in and relate or expand. If you block these expressions then you get a lecture/dissertation, chock full of info, but not a dialog within a community. So the question is: what do you see HN to be: a knowledge repository or a place that allows technology-minded people to share and belong?
    - a_c_s 11y ago
      HN has always blocked these kinds of responses, just as how they block pun, joke and meme threads. Memes are arguably more indicative of a community as they are an in-group norm, but HN has a clear stand against them as they dilute the quality of the discussion.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    He's been here three times as long as you so I figure he knows how things work. On top of that I got him just fine.
zippy786 11y ago
This is what is fundamentally wrong with the industry. Often those who don't care or don't do much are the highest paid and get more reward that the ones who care the most and always try to do something. Obviously, the environment eventually turns those who care into someone not caring as much. Eventually not caring at all, thus a toxic environment is formed. Some may also feel that this is the norm in most companies and leave for freelancing etc.
- angersock 11y ago
  The author kinda hints at the key right here: "They’re interesting for a while, but they’re also the same self-inflicted wounds everyone seems to deal with — why is this slow? why is this broken? how can we keep this old code limping along indefinitely without having to rewrite it? how does this thing a former employee wrote even work? They’re cute puzzles, and I can get into solving them for a while, but I don’t care about them. Because they aren’t my problems; they were just dumped in my lap, along with a canvas sack with a dollar sign on it." Companies that write their own software create something where nothing existed before--and so by definition, all of their problems are self-inflicted. Shit gets old, fast.
  - kamaal 11y ago
    Fashion gets old, fast. Decisions which are made after much thought, planning and running things from a long term perspective turn out to last really long freeing your time up to pursue new projects. Jumping on to a new framework every few months because its trending on the internets is the reason why every one is in a hurry(to achieve a pointless goal) to do work which has already been done, over and over again.
    - thewarrior 11y ago
      Could you elaborate on this a bit ? I mean , is it feasible for the ordinary developer to engage in a multi-year risky R&D project that might ultimately fail resulting in nothing ? Most people barely have any time to code. It's just because Github is your Resume (TM) that makes most people crank out their own Javascript framework so they can have it on their resume. Could you give any examples of any such long term one man personal R&D efforts ?
neverartful 11y ago
Having too much passion? IMO, passion is not sustainable. I believe that dispassionate works much better over the long term. Of course, ymmv.
- harimau 11y ago
  mpdehaan2 didn't use the word passion but caring too much. I've found myself in a similar situation. I didn't care about the company or work at all but, within the realm of job, I still wanted to excel at it. When you're forced to be somewhere 8 hours a day, you tend to want to make that time matter. Otherwise, what's the point. I've been through the exact same cycle and it sucks. It's worth it as a learning process though. Finding what the right balance for you, what works, what doesn't.
- jaegerpicker 11y ago
  as you say ymmv but I can be nothing but passionate. If I don't care I simply won't do it unless I'm forced and the results will suck. I need it to matter to me or it's a complete fail. I've spent most of my career looking for a place where that works, I think I've found it but honestly who knows at this point.
- Dewie3 11y ago
  Maybe it's just a question of managing to remain detached from caring too much about all the yucky stuff. If you are passionate about a field, it goes to reason that you are much more prone to also worry when you see things that are less than good about. Then you think how it should be different. Then you realize that it won't happen soon. Maybe you realize that you don't have the power to help change it. Now you feel powerless and depressed over the state of affairs -- and you care a lot about the state of affairs, since this is the thing that you're passionate about. Meanwhile, someone more disinterested don't care too much if everything is going to hell. He might not be as happy with what he does, but he has more peace of mind. I think you can try to manage to detach yourself from the negative focus that passion can lead to. To try to numb your passion seems like a less good option.
kelvin0 11y ago
Wow, this sums up clearly my experiences and what I've taken away from them. Very well written, this fits me so perfectly it's scary ... Makes me realize there are many more devs struggling with the same things. Thanks for that post!
duopixel 11y ago
I have also stumbled upon this catch—care too much and carry the burden of stress and disappointment, or care too little and find no fulfilment in work. The solution I have found is to practice losing myself in work (achieve flow) and yet not be attached to the result. If it were your checkout line I'd try to be completely focused on dispatching the clients with efficiency and courtesy without looking at the length of the line. Focused and productive work is a reward in itself. You leave the office feeling energized and the day flies by. The paradox is that by not caring about the result you often produce your best work.
seansmccullough 11y ago
I totally agree. If I care too much about what I'm trying to do at work, I just get upset.
Dewie3 11y ago
> I found out a while back, and this is somewhat paradoxical, that if I care TOO much, I'm less happy. I have a feeling that this realization might be central to a part of Buddhist philosophy/mindset.
eevee 11y ago
This resonates, definitely. I don't "care" about these problems in the sense that my heart can't really be in them, but they are still blinding obstacles for me and my coworkers that I would like to resolve, and it's easy to get... very invested in them. Until the day I realize all the low-hanging fruit is fixed and everyone else is pretty much content to put up with what's left, making it much harder and much less rewarding to continue. I have enough trouble with searching for a finish line in projects I start myself, so I guess I'm tired of doing it when it's not even my race.
AdeptusAquinas 11y ago
This is totally true. I find when I am most depressed and irritable about work is when I have become too engaged in it. Pulling back and seeing it as just work, just time you are selling to someone else, clears my head and paradoxically makes me a better co-worker both in attitude and performance. Then I slowly get drawn back in and depressed again. Its a cycle, but at least I can see it happening now rather than just getting burnt out.

jfe 11y ago

ditto.

zatkin 11y ago
Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the upvoting feature is for.
- votetardgjgjv 11y ago
  Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the downvoting feature is for.
  - Chronic31 11y ago
    Reposting: Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the downvoting feature is for.
- mnglkhn2 11y ago
  The comment can be considered a meaningful contribution as well. Dialog is not only information but also flow enablers and/or facilitators. The fact that (s)he expressed sympathy/approval might show that others think the same, which in itself if a tidbit, if not too small. But it can greatly help others to chime in and relate or expand. If you block these expressions then you get a lecture/dissertation, chock full of info, but not a dialog within a community. So the question is: what do you see HN to be: a knowledge repository or a place that allows technology-minded people to share and belong?
  - a_c_s 11y ago
    HN has always blocked these kinds of responses, just as how they block pun, joke and meme threads. Memes are arguably more indicative of a community as they are an in-group norm, but HN has a clear stand against them as they dilute the quality of the discussion.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  He's been here three times as long as you so I figure he knows how things work. On top of that I got him just fine.

zippy786 11y ago

This is what is fundamentally wrong with the industry. Often those who don't care or don't do much are the highest paid and get more reward that the ones who care the most and always try to do something. Obviously, the environment eventually turns those who care into someone not caring as much. Eventually not caring at all, thus a toxic environment is formed. Some may also feel that this is the norm in most companies and leave for freelancing etc.

angersock 11y ago
The author kinda hints at the key right here: "They’re interesting for a while, but they’re also the same self-inflicted wounds everyone seems to deal with — why is this slow? why is this broken? how can we keep this old code limping along indefinitely without having to rewrite it? how does this thing a former employee wrote even work? They’re cute puzzles, and I can get into solving them for a while, but I don’t care about them. Because they aren’t my problems; they were just dumped in my lap, along with a canvas sack with a dollar sign on it." Companies that write their own software create something where nothing existed before--and so by definition, all of their problems are self-inflicted. Shit gets old, fast.
- kamaal 11y ago
  Fashion gets old, fast. Decisions which are made after much thought, planning and running things from a long term perspective turn out to last really long freeing your time up to pursue new projects. Jumping on to a new framework every few months because its trending on the internets is the reason why every one is in a hurry(to achieve a pointless goal) to do work which has already been done, over and over again.
  - thewarrior 11y ago
    Could you elaborate on this a bit ? I mean , is it feasible for the ordinary developer to engage in a multi-year risky R&D project that might ultimately fail resulting in nothing ? Most people barely have any time to code. It's just because Github is your Resume (TM) that makes most people crank out their own Javascript framework so they can have it on their resume. Could you give any examples of any such long term one man personal R&D efforts ?

neverartful 11y ago

Having too much passion? IMO, passion is not sustainable. I believe that dispassionate works much better over the long term. Of course, ymmv.

harimau 11y ago
mpdehaan2 didn't use the word passion but caring too much. I've found myself in a similar situation. I didn't care about the company or work at all but, within the realm of job, I still wanted to excel at it. When you're forced to be somewhere 8 hours a day, you tend to want to make that time matter. Otherwise, what's the point. I've been through the exact same cycle and it sucks. It's worth it as a learning process though. Finding what the right balance for you, what works, what doesn't.
jaegerpicker 11y ago
as you say ymmv but I can be nothing but passionate. If I don't care I simply won't do it unless I'm forced and the results will suck. I need it to matter to me or it's a complete fail. I've spent most of my career looking for a place where that works, I think I've found it but honestly who knows at this point.
Dewie3 11y ago
Maybe it's just a question of managing to remain detached from caring too much about all the yucky stuff. If you are passionate about a field, it goes to reason that you are much more prone to also worry when you see things that are less than good about. Then you think how it should be different. Then you realize that it won't happen soon. Maybe you realize that you don't have the power to help change it. Now you feel powerless and depressed over the state of affairs -- and you care a lot about the state of affairs, since this is the thing that you're passionate about. Meanwhile, someone more disinterested don't care too much if everything is going to hell. He might not be as happy with what he does, but he has more peace of mind. I think you can try to manage to detach yourself from the negative focus that passion can lead to. To try to numb your passion seems like a less good option.

kelvin0 11y ago

Wow, this sums up clearly my experiences and what I've taken away from them. Very well written, this fits me so perfectly it's scary ... Makes me realize there are many more devs struggling with the same things. Thanks for that post!

duopixel 11y ago

I have also stumbled upon this catch—care too much and carry the burden of stress and disappointment, or care too little and find no fulfilment in work. The solution I have found is to practice losing myself in work (achieve flow) and yet not be attached to the result. If it were your checkout line I'd try to be completely focused on dispatching the clients with efficiency and courtesy without looking at the length of the line. Focused and productive work is a reward in itself. You leave the office feeling energized and the day flies by. The paradox is that by not caring about the result you often produce your best work.

seansmccullough 11y ago

I totally agree. If I care too much about what I'm trying to do at work, I just get upset.

Dewie3 11y ago

> I found out a while back, and this is somewhat paradoxical, that if I care TOO much, I'm less happy. I have a feeling that this realization might be central to a part of Buddhist philosophy/mindset.

eevee 11y ago

This resonates, definitely. I don't "care" about these problems in the sense that my heart can't really be in them, but they are still blinding obstacles for me and my coworkers that I would like to resolve, and it's easy to get... very invested in them. Until the day I realize all the low-hanging fruit is fixed and everyone else is pretty much content to put up with what's left, making it much harder and much less rewarding to continue. I have enough trouble with searching for a finish line in projects I start myself, so I guess I'm tired of doing it when it's not even my race.

AdeptusAquinas 11y ago

This is totally true. I find when I am most depressed and irritable about work is when I have become too engaged in it. Pulling back and seeing it as just work, just time you are selling to someone else, clears my head and paradoxically makes me a better co-worker both in attitude and performance. Then I slowly get drawn back in and depressed again. Its a cycle, but at least I can see it happening now rather than just getting burnt out.