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This is what burnout looks like. Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. After several months

This is what burnout looks like. Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. After several months, the author will probably start thinking about work again, and begin the job search once more. Not to say that the author's points are invalid; it's a terrible feeling to have to spend your most productive hours working on someone else's problems. He or she may find themselves drawn toward entrepreneurship. There's nothing quite like working on your own idea...especially if that idea is going to make you cash. Office culture is draining. Some people aren't cut out for it. Additionally, programmers tend to push themselves too hard for too long out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to the company. They're being paid huge sums and sometimes feel that they need to work extremely hard to deserve what they're being paid. They don't see that the work they do is extremely valuable in and of itself. Employment is a business arrangement; a coder doesn't owe the company anything more than their agreed-upon hours of work. If/when the author does return to work, it's likely they will be much more likely to put themselves first and the company second. They'll likely have a plan to escape working for someone else ever again.

aaggarwal 11y ago
I am going to start working soon. This makes me think if full-time work is really worth it. Wouldn't multiple short-term contracts with regular breaks be able to cut it in today's world? Isn't there people with experience on working on short-term contracts and still living well-off?
- probablyfiction 11y ago
  Full-time work can be worth it. Financial stability goes a long way towards contributing to happiness. You ultimately have to ask yourself what your goals are, and why you're working. A job should be a tool to help you get what you really want out of life.
  - aaggarwal 11y ago
    Yeah, as obvious as it is, one always tends to forget what are the ultimate goals one is working for? As long as there is motivation, maybe it wouldn't be so bad.
  - 72deluxe 11y ago
    I think many of us end up working fulltime because we are trained throughout schooling that fulltime employment is the norm. Also, we start working fulltime on low income (we are young, after all) so need to work fulltime to afford to live / buy the things we want etc. When we reach a threshold of income and financial stability, some of us forget to evaluate why we're working. As it turns out, I haven't reached this threshold yet so have to carry on working, but it is probably a good idea to look around and ask "why am I working?" if there's no real need for fulltime work.
- 72deluxe 11y ago
  The difficulty is guaranteeing a steady stream of short-term contracts. If you can get them and line them up I am sure it is great but I would not like the "unknown" factor of that. I would do it once you have a steady foundation and some savings to fall back on should these contracts not materialise for a while. Working fulltime is alright (it means you can be stable for a while) but not all of us are paid huge sums :-(
- Retric 11y ago
  A 40 hour a week job works out to ~1/3 of your time while awake which is fine. ~(40 * 48)/(16 * 365) The problem is it's easy to get worse than that add a 1h each way commute and 10 hour days, and skip vacations that's half your waking life. ~(60 * 50)/(16 * 365) And of course you need a few hours a day just for prep time and meals etc so quickly you only get free time to relax on the weekends.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Right; its important to realize that the marginal cost of work hours goes up geometrically. There are only so many in the day, and each remaining one becomes more desperately important.
- nickbauman 11y ago
  I'm working as a contractor right now. I have a few different clients. I set my own pace and schedule. If I want to take a day off I do it. In 2013 I took an entire month off and still made a very decent amount of money. Contracting is great you get exposed to a lot and you can walk away without too much trouble. If you have a lot of debt and overhead, it's not so easy, though.
- damoncali 11y ago
  I do this, but it's not all roses. Getting and keeping those contracts continually takes effort and time. It's stressful when you don't have much line of sight into the future. And even though you can charge a high hourly rate, it's difficult to work lots of billable hours. I need time for context switching, administrivia, marketing. And the one problem I don't see discussed much: on-demand motivation. If you work a salary job and don't feel up to it for at the moment, you can coast for half a day and get your shit together. On your own, that's a half a day of lost money. My brain needs breaks, and I just can't do code 40 hours a week and not burn out. I've tried. It just hasn't worked. So that downtime is a requirement, and you lose money for it. The best part is that a decent programmer can make a moderate income working relatively little. Or you can make a lot of money if you work very hard. It's your choice at any given moment. But don't underestimate the drain of having to work for one to three people at a time, managing your time, and making sure the pipeline doesn't run dry all at the same time. It's pretty annoying/stressful when two important clients have deadlines on the same day. It's not like you can just pull in more help. Or if you can, you then have two problems - you have to go out and find the help, manage it, etc. I don't think I could bill more than 25 hours a week and keep my sanity. But I'm not exactly a workaholic, and 25 hours a week is a pretty good living. Milage may vary.
  - aaggarwal 11y ago
    So, in a way, you are actually running a software consulting/development firm, however, in this case, you just have to manage yourself. Scouting for clients, deadlines are similar to a firm/agency running multiple contracts. I get that it requires pretty good networking and communication skills. Thank you for sharing your experience.
    - damoncali 11y ago
      Basically, yes. Don't let it discourage you. It's a great way to earn a living, but it has downsides - so go in with open eyes. It's not a life for "I just want to code" types. They're better off with full time jobs.
  - damoncali 11y ago
- exelius 11y ago
  Working lots of short-term contracts are fine when the economy is good. But when the economy goes bad, you'll see those contracts dry up very quickly. Then you're looking for a full time job along with everyone else who was doing short term contracts at a time when companies are scaling back hiring. Most of you are going to have a bad time. A full-time job offers some protection from volatility. I'm not going to pretend that nobody has ever been laid off from a full-time job, but if you work contracts you have ZERO job security. And contractors are the first thing to go in cost cutting mode. If you go the independent contractor route, make sure your emergency fund can cover 18-24 months of expenses. Also, recognize that while the pay may be higher, if you're in the US you also are on the hook for 8% payroll tax that your employer would normally pay on your behalf. If you go this route, you need to adjust your definition of "well off". If you are looking to keep pace with your friends working at Google and making $150k, that's pretty unlikely. But you can probably pull $60k and still meet your savings goals, and $60k/yr is more than enough to live comfortably on. And that number won't be static; some years you might make $100k and some years you might make $20k. You need your savings to be able to survive the lean years. All that said, based on your comment I assume you have no work experience. Why would you hire yourself for a short-term contract over someone else? Go work somewhere full-time for at least a few years until you have a good answer for that question. You almost certainly have a whole lot of tradecraft to learn as well. Once you've built up some experience (and some contacts) you can think about contracting.
  - mtbcoder 11y ago
    > Also, recognize that while the pay may be higher, if you're in the US you also are on the hook for 8% payroll tax that your employer would normally pay on your behalf. You are on the hook for more than just that. Federal, state and often county taxes (gross receipts, business licenses) will need to be paid. Plus you will need to acquire health insurance, fund your retirement, pay for needed business expenses, etc. Not to mention, most contracts you sign, will require that you also carry some form of business insurance (errors and omissions for example). All these things will slice and dice your hourly rate down severely.
  - aaggarwal 11y ago
    I am not even sure now that this will work in good economic times, since there is saturation in contract-based assignments, with agencies hiring programmers on very low rate in developing countries. All I can take away from this is that, one needs to have experience and a great network (potential clients) before thinking about contract work. Thank you for your input.
- mtbcoder 11y ago
  > Isn't there people with experience on working on short-term contracts and still living well-off? This is just my opinion and I can only speak from a US perspective, but yes and no. The ones who are able to do this have already gotten a 10+ year head start and have built up a deep network from which to source work from. The ones who are starting out today are more than likely having a very tough go at it. Competition for contracts is much more intense compared to 10, 15 years ago and you really need to bring more to the table than just "javascript developer" or "wordpress consultant". I know there exists this love-affair on HN with running off to become independent contractor, live on a beach writing code and making your own hours. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the reality though is that in the end you are building a business (even if it's just you). All the energy, time, risk and money that it takes to run a regular businesses will be just the same with running your own consultancy. The downtime you think you will have to yourself in-between contracts will be eaten up by having to find the next contract. If you happen to unfortunately live in or near a city with a high cost of living, the pressure will be even more intense.
  - aaggarwal 11y ago
    You could be very right here, since most of the people I come across working on contracts are already in the market for at least 10 years. In today's market, for someone new starting out, I guess there will be cut-throat competition to get programming contracts, with people ready to work at a very low rate (e.g. on Freelancer, oDesk).
    - nostrademons 11y ago
      That was the case 10 years ago as well. Most of my contracting friends started out with $15/hour webmonkey work. The thing you have to understand about contracting (and really any paid work, I've noticed the same effect as a big-company employee) is that people will pay a large premium for a track record of delivering working solutions. When you first start out, your asset is "I know this programming language", your clients just want someone who knows that programming language, and you're competing with all of these people on oDesk and eLance who also know that programming language. After you've delivered successfully on your first couple projects, your asset is "I delivered on these projects and it made my clients $X", your clients want someone with a track record of delivering on projects with minimal handholding, and you're competing only with other people who have had wins of similar magnitude. The supply of these is much lower and the demand is much higher, and so you can charge much higher rates.
- bowlich 11y ago
  I wish there was more part-time employment gigs out there for programmers. I know I would jump on something like that, but I've never seen anyone advertise a position as part-time. That leaves the contracting route. The issue there is you now end up a salesman. The people I know who are good contractors are businessmen first, software engineers second. They know how to close deals, attract clients,and have excellent "soft skills." They are mediocre developers. Not because they couldn't be excellent developers or were excellent developers before becoming contractors, but simply because their work day is no longer centred around engineering. This is fine if what you want is to run a business and be a businessman. Not so much if you're trying to escape the trappings of business to find more time to devote to focusing on just developing. This is all anecdotal of course, I'm sure there are contractors who see a wide range of experiences that differ from mine.
johan_larson 11y ago
Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. It's strenuous or dangerous or dirty or degrading or stressful or boring. If it were actually fun, people would be doing it for free. (Exceptions, anyone?) We programmers are quite lucky. At its worst our work is only frustrating. And we are well compensated, usually. Don't get me wrong; programming itself can be lots of fun. But what you get paid for isn't the fun stuff. I doubt there is anyone who gets excited about upgrading and debugging aging Java applications.
- Jare 11y ago
  > if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work a) Even if it's a job I would do for free, you need to pay me because I need money in order to live. b) Even if it's a job I do because I love it, you need to pay me to ensure that I do it at the pace and with the guarantees you need. I wouldn't call either of these "nasty", although the first is arguable at a global scale.
- dagw 11y ago
  Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. It's also a question of time management. I can only do N things in a week/month/year. If you want one of those things to be your thing, you're going to have to convince me to priorities it over other things. Money is a quick and convenient way to do that.
- SixSigma 11y ago
  Do you think tax returns and complying with other bureaucracy is fun? There are myriad reasons why people form firms and a body of literature around it. Start with Coase's Nature of the firm : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_of_the_Firm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_of_the_Firm
- learnstats2 11y ago
  > Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. I don't believe this is true. Almost all people need to earn money to live a reasonable lifestyle, society as it is. Considering the number of hours in the day: enjoyable, non-nasty tasks may be off the radar unless they are paid. I feel like what you are saying is an excuse for employers to treat employees poorly. "We're paying you, so..." It doesn't have to be this way.
iopq 11y ago
I quit the tech industry over a year ago and I'm not itching back. Maybe if I did something part time that could work, because I don't want to spend more than 20 hours a week working.
- czechdeveloper 11y ago
  What industry are you now in, that you can work 20h/week? Just curious, you are living my dream.
  - angrybits 11y ago
    I work in a Teradata shop in a major financial institution and the hours are reasonable and the work is borderline relaxing. There is a nice middle ground between 20h/wk and the startup meatgrinder if you seek it.
    - czechdeveloper 11y ago
      For me 20h/wk is middle ground between fulltime and not having to work at all.
      - krisdol 11y ago
        It literally is in the middle between fulltime and not having to work at all, so it's not just you.
  - eropple 11y ago
    I've been doing devops contracting for a startup at 25 hours/week lately. I'm digging it a lot, because it gives me two days during the work week to go outside and plenty of time to work on my own stuff. I don't feel guilty when I go home after one of those work days and don't put time in on one of my projects. That's a powerful thing. (Shameless plug: one of my arrangements is ending soon and I'll be taking on more devops and automation work; at every place I've been I've added pretty big multipliers to engineering output in a fairly short amount of time, and my email's in my profile if that appeals to you.)
seivan 11y ago
I went through this. Not sure what toxic culture entails, but fucked up deadlines burned me out. Why do all software companies rush so hard.
- fsloth 11y ago
  " all software companies rush so hard." I suppose it depends on the business model the software is part of. If you want a pace that is compatible with proper engineering I would suggest looking into companies that deal with products whose lifetime is measured in decades such as CAD vendors or other highly technical software. All freshmen to software engineering have this weird idea that a piece of code can ship once it builds and just shipping as much code as much as possible is the best road to maximize productivity. Until they get hit in their faces time and again by recurring bugs and they start to understand that the way to manage long term software profitably is by making sure as few bugs as possible leave the software engineers desk, at which point best practices and long term planning starts to take hold. That's at least my view, YMMV to a large extent, probably.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    just shipping as much code as much as possible is the best road to maximize productivity Just like juggling is a matter of throwing as many balls in the air as fast as possible ("What do you mean they come down again?")
    - ionforce 11y ago
      Disingenuous comparison is disingenuous.
      - pjc50 11y ago
        Well, it was more of a joke.
- dexterdog 11y ago
  Because to most project managers the problem always looks easier during the spec phase than it actually is. Very few people can groc the problem before doing it. Occasionally you over-estimate, but usually you are under. That's why a good manager of project managers usually just slaps a 25% increase on any estimate (adjusting for his knowledge of the particular PM's abilities).
mpdehaan2 11y ago
While not burnout related, I found out a while back, and this is somewhat paradoxical, that if I care TOO much, I'm less happy. What happens is I notice all the stuff I can't fix, or need to fix, and other people get stressed out making them fix it. The end result is that I stop caring quite as much (I still care), get happy, and then start caring too much again. It's especially hard at times when you have a lot of energy and want to make something work and you have to fight others who don't want to make it work. 8 hours plus of your day is a lot, so you want it to count, to matter, and that makes you care, to define yourself by that work, and that makes it hurt more. The alternative though, is just collecting the paycheck, which is also bad! The trick is finding a balance and making sure you also define yourself by other things. And this is a very hard thing for creative folks to do, because it feels like their art, and it's easy to always want to hit the next target/goal/feature, in a never ending wave. The catch is they don't stop. It's a continuum. One of my first jobs as a kid was in a grocery store, and I learned clearing out the line was impossible, and the beeping doesn't stop. It is madness to want the beeping to stop because people from other lanes just come over to yours, and it won't. I'm not great at this, but you just have to enjoy the people and the things along the way - as there's not a destination.
- jfe 11y ago
  ditto.
  - zatkin 11y ago
    Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the upvoting feature is for.
    - votetardgjgjv 11y ago
      Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the downvoting feature is for.
      - 11y ago
lighthawk 11y ago
> it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. Don't fall into the trap of thinking this. It is the case some of the time, but not all of the time. When I first started working in tech in the mid-90s, it was only a year or two before I was considering going back to school in music or to get an MBA. Since about 2004, I've known that I would like to abandon the tech industry. It is now 2015. I have dreams of opening a restaurant, retail store, starting any kind of business, becoming a professional writer, etc. But, this is where I am. All that said, I read the tech and science news everyday. My relationship with tech is love/hate. I can't get enough of it and will obsess about it or coding something at home, but I know it makes me unhappy. I feel I'd be better off just being a caretaker of some sort, or in some sort of service industry. I've talked to several developers over the years that dream of being a groundskeeper. This is reality for some of us out there. I'm personally dealing with it by losing weight and working towards the goal of being independent from an employer. Here are some ideas for those that feel burned out or hate their job: * Get a hobby OR focus on your family/self and stop trying to be so much. * Pretend you are going to quit and seriously look into how you could make your dream happen, even if it seems financially irresponsible. * Keep a watch on cheap plane, train, etc. tickets to figure out how to escape your life, or think about where you would go to get away from it all. * Find a place where you can go to just chill-out and think. * If you have sleep apnea or feel tired a lot and don't dream at night, consider going to a doc to get CPAP or an oral device and dedicate yourself to losing weight. * Talk to a psychiatrist and get some meds. * Find a friend/person you can talk to about it. * Do your best to stop thinking negatively for some period of each day, or all day, even if it is so normal to be negative that it seems fake not to be that way. * Don't be afraid to cut back hours at work. If they fire you, so what. And if you think they would kill you if you stopped, run away. You will be ok.
- perfTerm 11y ago
  Man, I might be slightly depressed at the idea of going back to another job, but meds scare the fucking crap out of me. I was trying to do a class a semester and work at the same time at a startup as a junior full stack engineer for something I truly couldn't care less about (advertising). I think the key thing that's making me look forward to my next position is 1: I found a spot where I'll have an office thus eliminating much of the distractors that are present in these ridiculous open office layouts. Creative people are distracted very easily [0] and the open office layout was really destroying my love for being an engineer. It was very funny because when I'd come home I'd be exhausted, but if I sat and tried to do my homework I'd actually get more done when I was exhausted because there weren't 100 people walking around me. 2. The office has a window. I hated working in this cramped, open, shared space we had for a while. The closest window was probably 25 feet away in a small conference room. And there was nothing on the walls. 3. This new position that I haven't quite accepted yet gives me the opportunity to write one day a week to create entries for a technical blog and writing is something I'd like to do anyways so the opportunity to be able to contribute to the tech community in that manner is tremendous. 4. This is a recruiting firm so I'll actually hopefully get to see some people get hired because of the things I do! How neat to have a real world impact. 5. They do lots of charity events so I can always respect that. Lots of companies focus on the parties but parties are just a way to escape in a lot of ways, I think giving back will feel tremendous. 6. I'll be helping to work out what to do next with the CEO, this could potentially be stressful, but I really love the idea of having the opportunity to develop performance indicators, plan out entire systems, and build a team. This allows me to be more than just a cog in the machine or one man on a team, it allows me to feel like a real god damn fuckin engineer. A contributor. I have so many ideas all the time, why not be employed somewhere where I'm more than just feature X, maintenence Y, and feature Z ad nauseum? That being said there are a few downsides such as not being able to have a close mentor. I am still relatively junior. This means I'll have to work a bit harder on my own in order to stay fresh and keep building my skills which means some homework time with Code Complete and other resources like that. I may ask for them to hire me a mentor every fortnight for half a day so that I may improve and to keep the quality of everything I do for them up to snuff. So, while I'm a bit apprehensive about starting up again (thats a lot of weight on my shoulders!), I'm very excited to start at a place where I think I'll really be able to have an incredibly positive impact in the environment that I really feel will have the most positive impact on my performance and well being. If I'm easily distracted by people slurping sodas, why is it that most of the choices for offices for tech workers force me to accept that the only acceptable place for me to do incredibly complex engineering work is near people making jokes and slurping sodas? I may have taken a small pay cut (although bonuses will hopefully make up and then some if I really shine) but for me to finally have the opportunity to do engineering work in an office, and to be a part of the decision making process, and to have duties beyond just feature A and feature B including nontechnical technical writing, that excites me. So I guess my advice is, maybe instead of seeking meds (although therapy on its own I'm sure might be incredibly good (I've not been yet (although it wouldn't surprise me if I probably should have))), maybe do some introspection and figure out exactly what it is that is draining you day after day and then try to change those. For me, I think, it was an inability to get into the zone at work, thus making me spend so much of my energy just on maintaining a decent level of focus. When I'm home, I don't need that and the time flies whenever I actually sit and do work. To get rid of that energy drain should be tremendous for me. Maybe you guys will see some tech articles by me in the future, I sure hope so ;-) [0] - http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6831248 http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6831248
JoergR 11y ago
> Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. Nice victim blaming
brightball 11y ago
He has actually done one of the best things that he can do in that situation: eliminate expenses. When I tried bootstrapping my startup years ago with periodic contract work the albatross around my neck wasn't anything to do with the company, it was the mortgage and other home expenses that continually made it harder and harder to go without a steady income. People always focus on income without looking at expenses as much, but the closer you can get those expenses to zero the wealthier you really are since you NEED so much less cash flow. It's a huge multiplier. If I had the ability to pay off all my debt overnight, using my time the way I want to would be a whole lot easier. I absolutely sympathize with the author here. There are several things that I want to build but I have a full time job, a wife and 2 kids. At some point I had to decide that being a good father and husband is more important than pursuing those entrepreneurial dreams. There's only so much time in a day. I'm lucky in that I have a great job with a company who's mission I fully support and ownership that treats their employees better than any company I've ever seen. It makes it significantly easier to put the company over personal ambitions. Time and a place for everything.
- jlongster 11y ago
  I've always wanted to make $200,000 or so from a successful personal project on the side, just so that I could pay off my mortgage so I didn't have to worry about it anymore. But when I think about really getting that money, I realize I wouldn't do that. If my mortage is $1200/month, I just bought myself 166 months, or ~14 years. If the idea is to quit your job and invest in a company, that's not the smartest move. You're better off stocking away $72,000 so you don't have to worry about your mortgage in 5 years, and investing the rest in the company (you will not be making money for a while, and on top of paying your own salary, you will need to buy advertising). If the idea is to avoid the interest on your loan, and be completely emotionally free from that debt, than by all means do it. This would work well if you are just going to do consulting since the cash flow swing isn't as dangerous.
  - brightball 11y ago
    While I agree with you on that point, just looking from a cash flow perspective if you were to keep working for a little while after paying everything off you'd likely be able to save a huge amount of money very quickly. Save, invest, relax on a beach...any of it's easier without that mortgage eating away at you. I remember when I finally got around to doing the math on my first mortgage and realized I was actually going to pay close to triple the sale price of the house if I waited the full 30 years. The real trick, if you don't want to pay off the whole thing, is to make a lump sum payment to pay down about half of the mortgage early. It's the first 10-15 years on a 30 year where the payments are so interest heavy that you're really just throwing away money. Get about halfway to payoff as fast as you can though and those payments are a whole lot closer to just paying back a cash balance.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
This isn't burnout: " I stay up hours later than I mean to, not even doing anything, just trying to put off sleeping — because the next thing I experience will be waking up and going back to work." This is straight up depression. We need to stop using office-cliches like "burnout" and start addressing the very real mental health issues in the tech industry. Maintaining my mental health is like staying in shape, eating right, etc. Only as an adult have I learned how much work it takes to stay mentally healthy and not fall into these traps. Things like pacing yourself, recognizing when you're stressed, being able to say 'no,' taking enough breaks, having a dialogue with your boss/clients on what your realistic expectations should be for this project, self identifying with your job too much, not having outside interests outside of tech, etc all matter. Techies seem to love stress. We're competitive, asocial, difficult, etc. No wonder stuff like this is so common. How many high profile tech suicides have we had in the past few years? We're doing the opposite of staying mentally healthy. Turns out human beings are incredibly delicate creatures, but no one wants to admit it as to not look "weak."
- johnward 11y ago
  I thought that feeling was just normal. I've experienced it basically since I started working in tech. I can't imagine most people want to actually wake up and go to work. It's not possible. The funny part is I find myself dreaming of going back to stocking shelves at a grocery store like I did in high school. I'd never make enough money to support myself doing something like that though. I romanticize the Peter Gibbons move to go work in construction even though I know I probably wouldn't be happy doing anything. I long for stress free days. Especially when most of the stress I experience is just completely artificial or manufactured by my boss or company. Most of the problems I have at work shouldn't bother me after hours but they never leave.
  - moogly 11y ago
    I also thought that feeling was normal. I sure have felt it during my entire career. It's getting worse though. I've soon reached the point where I really can't give a rat's arse about my job. The software I get to develop doesn't help making the world a better place. It doesn't help people, other than making rich people richer. It doesn't advance mankind. Not does it bring joy or excitement to anyone. It's just so pointless, drab and dull.
Arjuna 11y ago
This is what burnout looks like. I agree. Boys and girls, as you likely know, burnout is real. But, you can manage it. I'll tell you what I do. Here's the secret: Put yourself first. Now, that sounds quite selfish on first-blush. What exactly does that mean? For me, it means I take care of my health, first and foremost. Before the day is started, before the family is awake, I head off to the gym to be with The Iron. Henry Rollins wrote about it much more eloquently that I can, so I urge you to take a moment and read his words [1]. Once you've been with The Iron, nothing can stop you. Sure, you will still have rough days. But, I will tell you that, having been with The Iron, you will know that there is nothing that can bring you down. You will know that you have earned it for yourself on that morning. There is very little that can shake you when you know that. When all else fails around you, when software fails, when management fails, when fear, doubt, uncertainty and self-pity come rumbling toward you like a freight train, when friends forsake you... I am here to tell you that you will gently remind yourself in the midst of the storm: "I rolled out of the rack to bring it. When most of the world around me was asleep, I paid the price [2], and that is what truly matters today." And, over time, you will build that attitude, and you will find that you are unshakable. You will find that you will manage your time to make it happen. You will find that, even while you work hard at work, you will not let it control you. The work will always be there; the inbox will always be full, so put yourself first. You will find that you will start eating right, because you realize that there is a price to be paid in order to stave off feelings that certain foods can cause. The roller-coaster of junk food and caffeine will fade from your life, because you will find that they have a net-negative impact regarding how you want to feel and perform. You may even find that you want to start meditating, to balance the mind. I know it's old advice. I know that it sounds cliche. But I urge you to try it. Do it for yourself. If you can't do mornings, then do it when you can. Mornings just set the tone for me, but do what works for you. Take time to put yourself first, every day. [1] http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/strength-articles/iron-henry-rollins http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/strength-articles/iron-henry... [2] I'm very fond of Vince Lombardi's words here: Football is a great deal like life in that it teaches that work, sacrifice, perseverance, competitive drive, selflessness and respect for authority is the price that each and every one of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile. To achieve success, whatever the job we have, we must pay a price. Success is like anything worthwhile. It has a price. You have to pay the price to win and you have to pay the price to get to the point where success is possible. Most important, you must pay the price to stay there. Once you agree upon the price you and your family must pay for success, it enables you to ignore the minor hurts, the opponent's pressure, and the temporary failures. I've never known a man worth his salt who, in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline. A man can be as great as he wants to be. If you believe in yourself and have the courage, the determination, the dedication, the competitive drive, and if you are willing to sacrifice the little things in life and pay the price for the things that are worthwhile, it can be done.
larrys 11y ago
"it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard." Or being in a job or a situation that didn't fit them and they exceeded their capabilities or their ability to deal with stress. Yelp, or for that matter any job, is not an elementary school that you are assigned to that you can't change because you are 6 years old. It's a job. People have all sorts of capabilities that allow them to work or not work at a particular career or company.
skynetv2 11y ago
I hear Netflix also has a very high pressure culture and if people cant cope up, they are given a generous severance and asked to leave. is this right? how long can a person survive in such environments?
- steven777400 11y ago
  Maybe long term survival isn't the point. I once interviewed with a team and was concerned that everyone seemed very young. I asked, "What's the turnover like?" They said, "Working on this team looks great on your resume and is excellent preparation for your next career step." I read that as: ride 'em hard and burn 'em out.
  - skynetv2 11y ago
    I can definitely see that. Also maintaining a younger work force comes with a lot of benefits for the company ... cheaper insurance costs, no family to run home to, no sick kids, no distractions, work long hours, etc etc ... keep them well fed and entertained, they will work 24 hrs a day.
- svachalek 11y ago
  There's a lot more to being a professional than being good at the technical aspects of what you do. Communicating, coordinating, scheduling, etc. all play at least as much of a role in getting the job done. I think if you are handling those aspects of the job well, you shouldn't feel like your pants are on fire everyday, no matter where you work. [Edit: assuming it's not some kind of sweatshop. Don't waste years of your life at one of those.] Also you probably have other priorities in life so remember those every day rather than look back two years later saying "how did I forget everything else in my life?" It can be done. Stand up for yourself, and what you want out of life. [I've worked 20 years in Silicon Valley, currently at Netflix.]
marvel_boy 11y ago
That's not burnout. He's doing the correct thing, where your jobs sucks is time to try a different thing. Good luck !
downandout 11y ago
>Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture Yelp's business model is quasi-extortionate. Even if the work environment itself was OK, writing code all day for that purpose would certainly leave me feeling pretty crappy about my job. That kind of thing doesn't wash off very easily if you have a conscience.
- eevee 11y ago
  Whispered rumors of Yelp's business model have been greatly exaggerated. In almost four years I have never seen anything within the company to substantiate them in any way whatsoever.
avn2109 11y ago
>> "They're being paid huge sums..." Everyone who works in finance just lol'd. But seriously, relative to the value a good hacker adds to the business, "huge sums" is probably not an accurate characterization of engineer comp.
- probablyfiction 11y ago
  Huge sums in relation to the average American worker. I'm being paid below average for a programmer of my caliber, but it still feels like a ton of money because I grew up in humble circumstances.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    But you should compare your self to your peers in other professions.
eevee 11y ago
Be sure to check back in a couple months. :)
rifung 11y ago
Is this really burnout? I feel like I've been burned out before but from what the author was saying, this doesn't seem like it. If anything it just seems like he has a lot of other things he wants to do and work prevents him pursuing them which made him unhappy. Of course, he still tried to pursue them in his spare time but then he just didn't have enough time to do them as much or as well as he wanted. Is this really burnout though? I ask because I relate to much of this situation, but I actually love my job, my company, and my coworkers. It's very interesting and I am very happy working. I just wish there were more time because there are still other things I would like to work on and I'm only getting older.
- justizin 11y ago
  I think this post makes a strong argument for the industry accepting more of us as external contributors, or with incredibly flexible work schedules. I don't mind inheriting other people's problems, and I don't mind coming into the office - I find it's helpful to swim with the school, so to speak - but sometimes I can better solve a problem out on a good bike ride or will have an epiphany about team dynamics while playing basketball, and after that, the next hour of work is worth more than two weeks of sitting around. It's difficult to quantify, it's difficult not to get lazy, and when you _fail_ to achieve your goals, people feel better if they watched you toil. I think it's human nature.
unclebucknasty 11y ago
>He or she may find themselves drawn toward entrepreneurship. The author may find the change refreshing, but I've never been as burned out as I have with my own company. It's like taking all of the other stuff, then adding an order of magnitude to the stress level. This comes from having responsiblity for everything, including the pressure of making it work overall (i.e. the dark side of the control and "freedom"). As well, you can frequently feel unappreciated by customers, staff, partners, etc. And, I've found myself far more sensitive to this than to the same from any manager or employer I've had.
copsarebastards 11y ago
> Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. I think the reality is probably more complicated. Probably Yelp pushes to much work on its employees and the author allowed it to happen. To be honest, I think more tech jobs are toxic than not; it's very hard to find a good tech job, and even when you do, a good tech job can turn toxic as quickly as a manager leaving. I've always been aware of this and tried to put myself first, but it's not always an easy or even possible thing to do.
- foobarian 11y ago
  It is also possible that this is just the way companies in our industry work today. I keep seeing junior developers who somehow think that their job is to write beautiful, elegant software with well designed architectures etc., while in reality the goal that matters is to get product out the door. When they get yelled at for going 2x over time because they ended up refactoring many times more code than necessary they get discouraged. I think it's just a matter of arriving at the right expectations, which sometimes takes time and experience. There are certainly roles where software can be an end itself. Academic paths focused specifically on software, open source, perhaps some R&D shops (think Guava guys). But in most companies it's a means to an end. This article makes some good related points on the topic of technical debt and what amount of it is optimal for enterprises. http://bigeng.io/post/118399425343/why-the-way-we-look-at-technical-debt-is-wrong http://bigeng.io/post/118399425343/why-the-way-we-look-at-te...
  - copsarebastards 11y ago
    > It is also possible that this is just the way companies in our industry work today. Yeah, I think that's true.

aaggarwal 11y ago

I am going to start working soon. This makes me think if full-time work is really worth it. Wouldn't multiple short-term contracts with regular breaks be able to cut it in today's world? Isn't there people with experience on working on short-term contracts and still living well-off?

probablyfiction 11y ago
Full-time work can be worth it. Financial stability goes a long way towards contributing to happiness. You ultimately have to ask yourself what your goals are, and why you're working. A job should be a tool to help you get what you really want out of life.
- aaggarwal 11y ago
  Yeah, as obvious as it is, one always tends to forget what are the ultimate goals one is working for? As long as there is motivation, maybe it wouldn't be so bad.
- 72deluxe 11y ago
  I think many of us end up working fulltime because we are trained throughout schooling that fulltime employment is the norm. Also, we start working fulltime on low income (we are young, after all) so need to work fulltime to afford to live / buy the things we want etc. When we reach a threshold of income and financial stability, some of us forget to evaluate why we're working. As it turns out, I haven't reached this threshold yet so have to carry on working, but it is probably a good idea to look around and ask "why am I working?" if there's no real need for fulltime work.
72deluxe 11y ago
The difficulty is guaranteeing a steady stream of short-term contracts. If you can get them and line them up I am sure it is great but I would not like the "unknown" factor of that. I would do it once you have a steady foundation and some savings to fall back on should these contracts not materialise for a while. Working fulltime is alright (it means you can be stable for a while) but not all of us are paid huge sums :-(
Retric 11y ago
A 40 hour a week job works out to ~1/3 of your time while awake which is fine. ~(40 * 48)/(16 * 365) The problem is it's easy to get worse than that add a 1h each way commute and 10 hour days, and skip vacations that's half your waking life. ~(60 * 50)/(16 * 365) And of course you need a few hours a day just for prep time and meals etc so quickly you only get free time to relax on the weekends.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Right; its important to realize that the marginal cost of work hours goes up geometrically. There are only so many in the day, and each remaining one becomes more desperately important.
nickbauman 11y ago
I'm working as a contractor right now. I have a few different clients. I set my own pace and schedule. If I want to take a day off I do it. In 2013 I took an entire month off and still made a very decent amount of money. Contracting is great you get exposed to a lot and you can walk away without too much trouble. If you have a lot of debt and overhead, it's not so easy, though.
damoncali 11y ago
I do this, but it's not all roses. Getting and keeping those contracts continually takes effort and time. It's stressful when you don't have much line of sight into the future. And even though you can charge a high hourly rate, it's difficult to work lots of billable hours. I need time for context switching, administrivia, marketing. And the one problem I don't see discussed much: on-demand motivation. If you work a salary job and don't feel up to it for at the moment, you can coast for half a day and get your shit together. On your own, that's a half a day of lost money. My brain needs breaks, and I just can't do code 40 hours a week and not burn out. I've tried. It just hasn't worked. So that downtime is a requirement, and you lose money for it. The best part is that a decent programmer can make a moderate income working relatively little. Or you can make a lot of money if you work very hard. It's your choice at any given moment. But don't underestimate the drain of having to work for one to three people at a time, managing your time, and making sure the pipeline doesn't run dry all at the same time. It's pretty annoying/stressful when two important clients have deadlines on the same day. It's not like you can just pull in more help. Or if you can, you then have two problems - you have to go out and find the help, manage it, etc. I don't think I could bill more than 25 hours a week and keep my sanity. But I'm not exactly a workaholic, and 25 hours a week is a pretty good living. Milage may vary.
- aaggarwal 11y ago
  So, in a way, you are actually running a software consulting/development firm, however, in this case, you just have to manage yourself. Scouting for clients, deadlines are similar to a firm/agency running multiple contracts. I get that it requires pretty good networking and communication skills. Thank you for sharing your experience.
  - damoncali 11y ago
    Basically, yes. Don't let it discourage you. It's a great way to earn a living, but it has downsides - so go in with open eyes. It's not a life for "I just want to code" types. They're better off with full time jobs.
- damoncali 11y ago
exelius 11y ago
Working lots of short-term contracts are fine when the economy is good. But when the economy goes bad, you'll see those contracts dry up very quickly. Then you're looking for a full time job along with everyone else who was doing short term contracts at a time when companies are scaling back hiring. Most of you are going to have a bad time. A full-time job offers some protection from volatility. I'm not going to pretend that nobody has ever been laid off from a full-time job, but if you work contracts you have ZERO job security. And contractors are the first thing to go in cost cutting mode. If you go the independent contractor route, make sure your emergency fund can cover 18-24 months of expenses. Also, recognize that while the pay may be higher, if you're in the US you also are on the hook for 8% payroll tax that your employer would normally pay on your behalf. If you go this route, you need to adjust your definition of "well off". If you are looking to keep pace with your friends working at Google and making $150k, that's pretty unlikely. But you can probably pull $60k and still meet your savings goals, and $60k/yr is more than enough to live comfortably on. And that number won't be static; some years you might make $100k and some years you might make $20k. You need your savings to be able to survive the lean years. All that said, based on your comment I assume you have no work experience. Why would you hire yourself for a short-term contract over someone else? Go work somewhere full-time for at least a few years until you have a good answer for that question. You almost certainly have a whole lot of tradecraft to learn as well. Once you've built up some experience (and some contacts) you can think about contracting.
- mtbcoder 11y ago
  > Also, recognize that while the pay may be higher, if you're in the US you also are on the hook for 8% payroll tax that your employer would normally pay on your behalf. You are on the hook for more than just that. Federal, state and often county taxes (gross receipts, business licenses) will need to be paid. Plus you will need to acquire health insurance, fund your retirement, pay for needed business expenses, etc. Not to mention, most contracts you sign, will require that you also carry some form of business insurance (errors and omissions for example). All these things will slice and dice your hourly rate down severely.
- aaggarwal 11y ago
  I am not even sure now that this will work in good economic times, since there is saturation in contract-based assignments, with agencies hiring programmers on very low rate in developing countries. All I can take away from this is that, one needs to have experience and a great network (potential clients) before thinking about contract work. Thank you for your input.
mtbcoder 11y ago
> Isn't there people with experience on working on short-term contracts and still living well-off? This is just my opinion and I can only speak from a US perspective, but yes and no. The ones who are able to do this have already gotten a 10+ year head start and have built up a deep network from which to source work from. The ones who are starting out today are more than likely having a very tough go at it. Competition for contracts is much more intense compared to 10, 15 years ago and you really need to bring more to the table than just "javascript developer" or "wordpress consultant". I know there exists this love-affair on HN with running off to become independent contractor, live on a beach writing code and making your own hours. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the reality though is that in the end you are building a business (even if it's just you). All the energy, time, risk and money that it takes to run a regular businesses will be just the same with running your own consultancy. The downtime you think you will have to yourself in-between contracts will be eaten up by having to find the next contract. If you happen to unfortunately live in or near a city with a high cost of living, the pressure will be even more intense.
- aaggarwal 11y ago
  You could be very right here, since most of the people I come across working on contracts are already in the market for at least 10 years. In today's market, for someone new starting out, I guess there will be cut-throat competition to get programming contracts, with people ready to work at a very low rate (e.g. on Freelancer, oDesk).
  - nostrademons 11y ago
    That was the case 10 years ago as well. Most of my contracting friends started out with $15/hour webmonkey work. The thing you have to understand about contracting (and really any paid work, I've noticed the same effect as a big-company employee) is that people will pay a large premium for a track record of delivering working solutions. When you first start out, your asset is "I know this programming language", your clients just want someone who knows that programming language, and you're competing with all of these people on oDesk and eLance who also know that programming language. After you've delivered successfully on your first couple projects, your asset is "I delivered on these projects and it made my clients $X", your clients want someone with a track record of delivering on projects with minimal handholding, and you're competing only with other people who have had wins of similar magnitude. The supply of these is much lower and the demand is much higher, and so you can charge much higher rates.
bowlich 11y ago
I wish there was more part-time employment gigs out there for programmers. I know I would jump on something like that, but I've never seen anyone advertise a position as part-time. That leaves the contracting route. The issue there is you now end up a salesman. The people I know who are good contractors are businessmen first, software engineers second. They know how to close deals, attract clients,and have excellent "soft skills." They are mediocre developers. Not because they couldn't be excellent developers or were excellent developers before becoming contractors, but simply because their work day is no longer centred around engineering. This is fine if what you want is to run a business and be a businessman. Not so much if you're trying to escape the trappings of business to find more time to devote to focusing on just developing. This is all anecdotal of course, I'm sure there are contractors who see a wide range of experiences that differ from mine.

johan_larson 11y ago

Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. It's strenuous or dangerous or dirty or degrading or stressful or boring. If it were actually fun, people would be doing it for free. (Exceptions, anyone?) We programmers are quite lucky. At its worst our work is only frustrating. And we are well compensated, usually. Don't get me wrong; programming itself can be lots of fun. But what you get paid for isn't the fun stuff. I doubt there is anyone who gets excited about upgrading and debugging aging Java applications.

Jare 11y ago
> if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work a) Even if it's a job I would do for free, you need to pay me because I need money in order to live. b) Even if it's a job I do because I love it, you need to pay me to ensure that I do it at the pace and with the guarantees you need. I wouldn't call either of these "nasty", although the first is arguable at a global scale.
dagw 11y ago
Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. It's also a question of time management. I can only do N things in a week/month/year. If you want one of those things to be your thing, you're going to have to convince me to priorities it over other things. Money is a quick and convenient way to do that.
SixSigma 11y ago
Do you think tax returns and complying with other bureaucracy is fun? There are myriad reasons why people form firms and a body of literature around it. Start with Coase's Nature of the firm : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_of_the_Firm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_of_the_Firm
learnstats2 11y ago
> Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. I don't believe this is true. Almost all people need to earn money to live a reasonable lifestyle, society as it is. Considering the number of hours in the day: enjoyable, non-nasty tasks may be off the radar unless they are paid. I feel like what you are saying is an excuse for employers to treat employees poorly. "We're paying you, so..." It doesn't have to be this way.

iopq 11y ago

I quit the tech industry over a year ago and I'm not itching back. Maybe if I did something part time that could work, because I don't want to spend more than 20 hours a week working.

czechdeveloper 11y ago
What industry are you now in, that you can work 20h/week? Just curious, you are living my dream.
- angrybits 11y ago
  I work in a Teradata shop in a major financial institution and the hours are reasonable and the work is borderline relaxing. There is a nice middle ground between 20h/wk and the startup meatgrinder if you seek it.
  - czechdeveloper 11y ago
    For me 20h/wk is middle ground between fulltime and not having to work at all.
    - krisdol 11y ago
      It literally is in the middle between fulltime and not having to work at all, so it's not just you.
- eropple 11y ago
  I've been doing devops contracting for a startup at 25 hours/week lately. I'm digging it a lot, because it gives me two days during the work week to go outside and plenty of time to work on my own stuff. I don't feel guilty when I go home after one of those work days and don't put time in on one of my projects. That's a powerful thing. (Shameless plug: one of my arrangements is ending soon and I'll be taking on more devops and automation work; at every place I've been I've added pretty big multipliers to engineering output in a fairly short amount of time, and my email's in my profile if that appeals to you.)

seivan 11y ago

I went through this. Not sure what toxic culture entails, but fucked up deadlines burned me out. Why do all software companies rush so hard.

fsloth 11y ago
" all software companies rush so hard." I suppose it depends on the business model the software is part of. If you want a pace that is compatible with proper engineering I would suggest looking into companies that deal with products whose lifetime is measured in decades such as CAD vendors or other highly technical software. All freshmen to software engineering have this weird idea that a piece of code can ship once it builds and just shipping as much code as much as possible is the best road to maximize productivity. Until they get hit in their faces time and again by recurring bugs and they start to understand that the way to manage long term software profitably is by making sure as few bugs as possible leave the software engineers desk, at which point best practices and long term planning starts to take hold. That's at least my view, YMMV to a large extent, probably.
- pjc50 11y ago
  just shipping as much code as much as possible is the best road to maximize productivity Just like juggling is a matter of throwing as many balls in the air as fast as possible ("What do you mean they come down again?")
  - ionforce 11y ago
    Disingenuous comparison is disingenuous.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Well, it was more of a joke.
dexterdog 11y ago
Because to most project managers the problem always looks easier during the spec phase than it actually is. Very few people can groc the problem before doing it. Occasionally you over-estimate, but usually you are under. That's why a good manager of project managers usually just slaps a 25% increase on any estimate (adjusting for his knowledge of the particular PM's abilities).

mpdehaan2 11y ago

While not burnout related, I found out a while back, and this is somewhat paradoxical, that if I care TOO much, I'm less happy. What happens is I notice all the stuff I can't fix, or need to fix, and other people get stressed out making them fix it. The end result is that I stop caring quite as much (I still care), get happy, and then start caring too much again. It's especially hard at times when you have a lot of energy and want to make something work and you have to fight others who don't want to make it work. 8 hours plus of your day is a lot, so you want it to count, to matter, and that makes you care, to define yourself by that work, and that makes it hurt more. The alternative though, is just collecting the paycheck, which is also bad! The trick is finding a balance and making sure you also define yourself by other things. And this is a very hard thing for creative folks to do, because it feels like their art, and it's easy to always want to hit the next target/goal/feature, in a never ending wave. The catch is they don't stop. It's a continuum. One of my first jobs as a kid was in a grocery store, and I learned clearing out the line was impossible, and the beeping doesn't stop. It is madness to want the beeping to stop because people from other lanes just come over to yours, and it won't. I'm not great at this, but you just have to enjoy the people and the things along the way - as there's not a destination.

jfe 11y ago
ditto.
- zatkin 11y ago
  Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the upvoting feature is for.
  - votetardgjgjv 11y ago
    Please make more meaningful contributions rather than simply feeling similarities with other users. That is what the downvoting feature is for.
    - 11y ago

lighthawk 11y ago

> it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. Don't fall into the trap of thinking this. It is the case some of the time, but not all of the time. When I first started working in tech in the mid-90s, it was only a year or two before I was considering going back to school in music or to get an MBA. Since about 2004, I've known that I would like to abandon the tech industry. It is now 2015. I have dreams of opening a restaurant, retail store, starting any kind of business, becoming a professional writer, etc. But, this is where I am. All that said, I read the tech and science news everyday. My relationship with tech is love/hate. I can't get enough of it and will obsess about it or coding something at home, but I know it makes me unhappy. I feel I'd be better off just being a caretaker of some sort, or in some sort of service industry. I've talked to several developers over the years that dream of being a groundskeeper. This is reality for some of us out there. I'm personally dealing with it by losing weight and working towards the goal of being independent from an employer. Here are some ideas for those that feel burned out or hate their job: * Get a hobby OR focus on your family/self and stop trying to be so much. * Pretend you are going to quit and seriously look into how you could make your dream happen, even if it seems financially irresponsible. * Keep a watch on cheap plane, train, etc. tickets to figure out how to escape your life, or think about where you would go to get away from it all. * Find a place where you can go to just chill-out and think. * If you have sleep apnea or feel tired a lot and don't dream at night, consider going to a doc to get CPAP or an oral device and dedicate yourself to losing weight. * Talk to a psychiatrist and get some meds. * Find a friend/person you can talk to about it. * Do your best to stop thinking negatively for some period of each day, or all day, even if it is so normal to be negative that it seems fake not to be that way. * Don't be afraid to cut back hours at work. If they fire you, so what. And if you think they would kill you if you stopped, run away. You will be ok.

perfTerm 11y ago
Man, I might be slightly depressed at the idea of going back to another job, but meds scare the fucking crap out of me. I was trying to do a class a semester and work at the same time at a startup as a junior full stack engineer for something I truly couldn't care less about (advertising). I think the key thing that's making me look forward to my next position is 1: I found a spot where I'll have an office thus eliminating much of the distractors that are present in these ridiculous open office layouts. Creative people are distracted very easily [0] and the open office layout was really destroying my love for being an engineer. It was very funny because when I'd come home I'd be exhausted, but if I sat and tried to do my homework I'd actually get more done when I was exhausted because there weren't 100 people walking around me. 2. The office has a window. I hated working in this cramped, open, shared space we had for a while. The closest window was probably 25 feet away in a small conference room. And there was nothing on the walls. 3. This new position that I haven't quite accepted yet gives me the opportunity to write one day a week to create entries for a technical blog and writing is something I'd like to do anyways so the opportunity to be able to contribute to the tech community in that manner is tremendous. 4. This is a recruiting firm so I'll actually hopefully get to see some people get hired because of the things I do! How neat to have a real world impact. 5. They do lots of charity events so I can always respect that. Lots of companies focus on the parties but parties are just a way to escape in a lot of ways, I think giving back will feel tremendous. 6. I'll be helping to work out what to do next with the CEO, this could potentially be stressful, but I really love the idea of having the opportunity to develop performance indicators, plan out entire systems, and build a team. This allows me to be more than just a cog in the machine or one man on a team, it allows me to feel like a real god damn fuckin engineer. A contributor. I have so many ideas all the time, why not be employed somewhere where I'm more than just feature X, maintenence Y, and feature Z ad nauseum? That being said there are a few downsides such as not being able to have a close mentor. I am still relatively junior. This means I'll have to work a bit harder on my own in order to stay fresh and keep building my skills which means some homework time with Code Complete and other resources like that. I may ask for them to hire me a mentor every fortnight for half a day so that I may improve and to keep the quality of everything I do for them up to snuff. So, while I'm a bit apprehensive about starting up again (thats a lot of weight on my shoulders!), I'm very excited to start at a place where I think I'll really be able to have an incredibly positive impact in the environment that I really feel will have the most positive impact on my performance and well being. If I'm easily distracted by people slurping sodas, why is it that most of the choices for offices for tech workers force me to accept that the only acceptable place for me to do incredibly complex engineering work is near people making jokes and slurping sodas? I may have taken a small pay cut (although bonuses will hopefully make up and then some if I really shine) but for me to finally have the opportunity to do engineering work in an office, and to be a part of the decision making process, and to have duties beyond just feature A and feature B including nontechnical technical writing, that excites me. So I guess my advice is, maybe instead of seeking meds (although therapy on its own I'm sure might be incredibly good (I've not been yet (although it wouldn't surprise me if I probably should have))), maybe do some introspection and figure out exactly what it is that is draining you day after day and then try to change those. For me, I think, it was an inability to get into the zone at work, thus making me spend so much of my energy just on maintaining a decent level of focus. When I'm home, I don't need that and the time flies whenever I actually sit and do work. To get rid of that energy drain should be tremendous for me. Maybe you guys will see some tech articles by me in the future, I sure hope so ;-) [0] - http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6831248 http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6831248

JoergR 11y ago

> Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. Nice victim blaming

brightball 11y ago

He has actually done one of the best things that he can do in that situation: eliminate expenses. When I tried bootstrapping my startup years ago with periodic contract work the albatross around my neck wasn't anything to do with the company, it was the mortgage and other home expenses that continually made it harder and harder to go without a steady income. People always focus on income without looking at expenses as much, but the closer you can get those expenses to zero the wealthier you really are since you NEED so much less cash flow. It's a huge multiplier. If I had the ability to pay off all my debt overnight, using my time the way I want to would be a whole lot easier. I absolutely sympathize with the author here. There are several things that I want to build but I have a full time job, a wife and 2 kids. At some point I had to decide that being a good father and husband is more important than pursuing those entrepreneurial dreams. There's only so much time in a day. I'm lucky in that I have a great job with a company who's mission I fully support and ownership that treats their employees better than any company I've ever seen. It makes it significantly easier to put the company over personal ambitions. Time and a place for everything.

jlongster 11y ago
I've always wanted to make $200,000 or so from a successful personal project on the side, just so that I could pay off my mortgage so I didn't have to worry about it anymore. But when I think about really getting that money, I realize I wouldn't do that. If my mortage is $1200/month, I just bought myself 166 months, or ~14 years. If the idea is to quit your job and invest in a company, that's not the smartest move. You're better off stocking away $72,000 so you don't have to worry about your mortgage in 5 years, and investing the rest in the company (you will not be making money for a while, and on top of paying your own salary, you will need to buy advertising). If the idea is to avoid the interest on your loan, and be completely emotionally free from that debt, than by all means do it. This would work well if you are just going to do consulting since the cash flow swing isn't as dangerous.
- brightball 11y ago
  While I agree with you on that point, just looking from a cash flow perspective if you were to keep working for a little while after paying everything off you'd likely be able to save a huge amount of money very quickly. Save, invest, relax on a beach...any of it's easier without that mortgage eating away at you. I remember when I finally got around to doing the math on my first mortgage and realized I was actually going to pay close to triple the sale price of the house if I waited the full 30 years. The real trick, if you don't want to pay off the whole thing, is to make a lump sum payment to pay down about half of the mortgage early. It's the first 10-15 years on a 30 year where the payments are so interest heavy that you're really just throwing away money. Get about halfway to payoff as fast as you can though and those payments are a whole lot closer to just paying back a cash balance.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

This isn't burnout: " I stay up hours later than I mean to, not even doing anything, just trying to put off sleeping — because the next thing I experience will be waking up and going back to work." This is straight up depression. We need to stop using office-cliches like "burnout" and start addressing the very real mental health issues in the tech industry. Maintaining my mental health is like staying in shape, eating right, etc. Only as an adult have I learned how much work it takes to stay mentally healthy and not fall into these traps. Things like pacing yourself, recognizing when you're stressed, being able to say 'no,' taking enough breaks, having a dialogue with your boss/clients on what your realistic expectations should be for this project, self identifying with your job too much, not having outside interests outside of tech, etc all matter. Techies seem to love stress. We're competitive, asocial, difficult, etc. No wonder stuff like this is so common. How many high profile tech suicides have we had in the past few years? We're doing the opposite of staying mentally healthy. Turns out human beings are incredibly delicate creatures, but no one wants to admit it as to not look "weak."

johnward 11y ago
I thought that feeling was just normal. I've experienced it basically since I started working in tech. I can't imagine most people want to actually wake up and go to work. It's not possible. The funny part is I find myself dreaming of going back to stocking shelves at a grocery store like I did in high school. I'd never make enough money to support myself doing something like that though. I romanticize the Peter Gibbons move to go work in construction even though I know I probably wouldn't be happy doing anything. I long for stress free days. Especially when most of the stress I experience is just completely artificial or manufactured by my boss or company. Most of the problems I have at work shouldn't bother me after hours but they never leave.
- moogly 11y ago
  I also thought that feeling was normal. I sure have felt it during my entire career. It's getting worse though. I've soon reached the point where I really can't give a rat's arse about my job. The software I get to develop doesn't help making the world a better place. It doesn't help people, other than making rich people richer. It doesn't advance mankind. Not does it bring joy or excitement to anyone. It's just so pointless, drab and dull.

Arjuna 11y ago

This is what burnout looks like. I agree. Boys and girls, as you likely know, burnout is real. But, you can manage it. I'll tell you what I do. Here's the secret: Put yourself first. Now, that sounds quite selfish on first-blush. What exactly does that mean? For me, it means I take care of my health, first and foremost. Before the day is started, before the family is awake, I head off to the gym to be with The Iron. Henry Rollins wrote about it much more eloquently that I can, so I urge you to take a moment and read his words [1]. Once you've been with The Iron, nothing can stop you. Sure, you will still have rough days. But, I will tell you that, having been with The Iron, you will know that there is nothing that can bring you down. You will know that you have earned it for yourself on that morning. There is very little that can shake you when you know that. When all else fails around you, when software fails, when management fails, when fear, doubt, uncertainty and self-pity come rumbling toward you like a freight train, when friends forsake you... I am here to tell you that you will gently remind yourself in the midst of the storm: "I rolled out of the rack to bring it. When most of the world around me was asleep, I paid the price [2], and that is what truly matters today." And, over time, you will build that attitude, and you will find that you are unshakable. You will find that you will manage your time to make it happen. You will find that, even while you work hard at work, you will not let it control you. The work will always be there; the inbox will always be full, so put yourself first. You will find that you will start eating right, because you realize that there is a price to be paid in order to stave off feelings that certain foods can cause. The roller-coaster of junk food and caffeine will fade from your life, because you will find that they have a net-negative impact regarding how you want to feel and perform. You may even find that you want to start meditating, to balance the mind. I know it's old advice. I know that it sounds cliche. But I urge you to try it. Do it for yourself. If you can't do mornings, then do it when you can. Mornings just set the tone for me, but do what works for you. Take time to put yourself first, every day. [1] http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/strength-articles/iron-henry-rollins http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/strength-articles/iron-henry... [2] I'm very fond of Vince Lombardi's words here: Football is a great deal like life in that it teaches that work, sacrifice, perseverance, competitive drive, selflessness and respect for authority is the price that each and every one of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile. To achieve success, whatever the job we have, we must pay a price. Success is like anything worthwhile. It has a price. You have to pay the price to win and you have to pay the price to get to the point where success is possible. Most important, you must pay the price to stay there. Once you agree upon the price you and your family must pay for success, it enables you to ignore the minor hurts, the opponent's pressure, and the temporary failures. I've never known a man worth his salt who, in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline. A man can be as great as he wants to be. If you believe in yourself and have the courage, the determination, the dedication, the competitive drive, and if you are willing to sacrifice the little things in life and pay the price for the things that are worthwhile, it can be done.

larrys 11y ago

"it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard." Or being in a job or a situation that didn't fit them and they exceeded their capabilities or their ability to deal with stress. Yelp, or for that matter any job, is not an elementary school that you are assigned to that you can't change because you are 6 years old. It's a job. People have all sorts of capabilities that allow them to work or not work at a particular career or company.

skynetv2 11y ago

I hear Netflix also has a very high pressure culture and if people cant cope up, they are given a generous severance and asked to leave. is this right? how long can a person survive in such environments?

steven777400 11y ago
Maybe long term survival isn't the point. I once interviewed with a team and was concerned that everyone seemed very young. I asked, "What's the turnover like?" They said, "Working on this team looks great on your resume and is excellent preparation for your next career step." I read that as: ride 'em hard and burn 'em out.
- skynetv2 11y ago
  I can definitely see that. Also maintaining a younger work force comes with a lot of benefits for the company ... cheaper insurance costs, no family to run home to, no sick kids, no distractions, work long hours, etc etc ... keep them well fed and entertained, they will work 24 hrs a day.
svachalek 11y ago
There's a lot more to being a professional than being good at the technical aspects of what you do. Communicating, coordinating, scheduling, etc. all play at least as much of a role in getting the job done. I think if you are handling those aspects of the job well, you shouldn't feel like your pants are on fire everyday, no matter where you work. [Edit: assuming it's not some kind of sweatshop. Don't waste years of your life at one of those.] Also you probably have other priorities in life so remember those every day rather than look back two years later saying "how did I forget everything else in my life?" It can be done. Stand up for yourself, and what you want out of life. [I've worked 20 years in Silicon Valley, currently at Netflix.]

marvel_boy 11y ago

That's not burnout. He's doing the correct thing, where your jobs sucks is time to try a different thing. Good luck !

downandout 11y ago

>Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture Yelp's business model is quasi-extortionate. Even if the work environment itself was OK, writing code all day for that purpose would certainly leave me feeling pretty crappy about my job. That kind of thing doesn't wash off very easily if you have a conscience.

eevee 11y ago
Whispered rumors of Yelp's business model have been greatly exaggerated. In almost four years I have never seen anything within the company to substantiate them in any way whatsoever.

avn2109 11y ago

>> "They're being paid huge sums..." Everyone who works in finance just lol'd. But seriously, relative to the value a good hacker adds to the business, "huge sums" is probably not an accurate characterization of engineer comp.

probablyfiction 11y ago
Huge sums in relation to the average American worker. I'm being paid below average for a programmer of my caliber, but it still feels like a ton of money because I grew up in humble circumstances.
- walshemj 11y ago
  But you should compare your self to your peers in other professions.

eevee 11y ago

Be sure to check back in a couple months. :)

rifung 11y ago

Is this really burnout? I feel like I've been burned out before but from what the author was saying, this doesn't seem like it. If anything it just seems like he has a lot of other things he wants to do and work prevents him pursuing them which made him unhappy. Of course, he still tried to pursue them in his spare time but then he just didn't have enough time to do them as much or as well as he wanted. Is this really burnout though? I ask because I relate to much of this situation, but I actually love my job, my company, and my coworkers. It's very interesting and I am very happy working. I just wish there were more time because there are still other things I would like to work on and I'm only getting older.

justizin 11y ago
I think this post makes a strong argument for the industry accepting more of us as external contributors, or with incredibly flexible work schedules. I don't mind inheriting other people's problems, and I don't mind coming into the office - I find it's helpful to swim with the school, so to speak - but sometimes I can better solve a problem out on a good bike ride or will have an epiphany about team dynamics while playing basketball, and after that, the next hour of work is worth more than two weeks of sitting around. It's difficult to quantify, it's difficult not to get lazy, and when you _fail_ to achieve your goals, people feel better if they watched you toil. I think it's human nature.

unclebucknasty 11y ago

>He or she may find themselves drawn toward entrepreneurship. The author may find the change refreshing, but I've never been as burned out as I have with my own company. It's like taking all of the other stuff, then adding an order of magnitude to the stress level. This comes from having responsiblity for everything, including the pressure of making it work overall (i.e. the dark side of the control and "freedom"). As well, you can frequently feel unappreciated by customers, staff, partners, etc. And, I've found myself far more sensitive to this than to the same from any manager or employer I've had.

copsarebastards 11y ago

> Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. I think the reality is probably more complicated. Probably Yelp pushes to much work on its employees and the author allowed it to happen. To be honest, I think more tech jobs are toxic than not; it's very hard to find a good tech job, and even when you do, a good tech job can turn toxic as quickly as a manager leaving. I've always been aware of this and tried to put myself first, but it's not always an easy or even possible thing to do.

foobarian 11y ago
It is also possible that this is just the way companies in our industry work today. I keep seeing junior developers who somehow think that their job is to write beautiful, elegant software with well designed architectures etc., while in reality the goal that matters is to get product out the door. When they get yelled at for going 2x over time because they ended up refactoring many times more code than necessary they get discouraged. I think it's just a matter of arriving at the right expectations, which sometimes takes time and experience. There are certainly roles where software can be an end itself. Academic paths focused specifically on software, open source, perhaps some R&D shops (think Guava guys). But in most companies it's a means to an end. This article makes some good related points on the topic of technical debt and what amount of it is optimal for enterprises. http://bigeng.io/post/118399425343/why-the-way-we-look-at-technical-debt-is-wrong http://bigeng.io/post/118399425343/why-the-way-we-look-at-te...
- copsarebastards 11y ago
  > It is also possible that this is just the way companies in our industry work today. Yeah, I think that's true.